Elementalist choice of weapons for PvP

[Algroshaw]

There are 3 main weapon combos people are interested in in gw2.. Staff, Sceptor/Focus and Dagger/Dagger

The staff is based on long-range abilities, the scepter on mid-range with less casts, and daggers close range.
I have links to video of PvP using the different weapons.

Staff -- http://www.youtube.com/watch/?v=Kge6AeskWLA&feature=re*lated
Sceptor/Focus -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8rv7_JD5Ic

I ave no viveo of dagger pvp, but you can see all the skills for each weapon here: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_elementalist_skills

Which weapon combo do you think will be best for PvP? In the scepter video, it is obviously a very skilled PvPer with a very good knowledge of the game, so there must be a good reason for him to use those weapons..

BUT, it seems like totalbiscuit is doing a TON more dmg than the other guy with his staff.. (2k fireballs, AOE), while the other guy hits 500 with flamestrike.. The other guy does have rock armor, a healing phoenix, and a knockdown, but he misses out on a bubble, flaming retreat, lava aoe, etc.

The guy is obviously experienced and knows the game though, so I don't know...

What do you guys think? staff vs sceptor vs daggers for pvp based on this info?

[Algroshaw]

sorry, i mixed up the links. first one is septer 2nd is staff

[Centaur]

I don't think there is one particular weapon combo that is "best" for all situations. The important thing in GW2 is, that you can switch roles on the fly, by switching weapons or (in the case of the elementalist) attunements. One moment you may want to be a ranged damage dealer using the staff, the next you may want to get into closer range to take the pressure away from a team mate who is in trouble, so you switch to scepter/focus or dagger/dagger... you may even switch from damage to support skills if the situation requires that to help out your team. And with the four attunements you have available to your (fire/air/water/earth), each with their own set of weapon skills, you have a wide range of options to cover all the different situations. Each weapon set has its own uses.

Also, note that flamestrike is not a staff skill but a scepter skill... yes, you don't want to be exposed to the long-ranged staff skills for a long time... you will want to get up close and attack that ele face to face... and force him to switch to a weapon set that is more useful up close.

[Algroshaw]

I don't think there is one particular weapon combo that is "best" for all situations. The important thing in GW2 is, that you can switch roles on the fly, by switching weapons or (in the case of the elementalist) attunements. One moment you may want to be a ranged damage dealer using the staff, the next you may want to get into closer range to take the pressure away from a team mate who is in trouble, so you switch to scepter/focus or dagger/dagger... you may even switch from damage to support skills if the situation requires that to help out your team. And with the four attunements you have available to your (fire/air/water/earth), each with their own set of weapon skills, you have a wide range of options to cover all the different situations. Each weapon set has its own uses.

Also, note that flamestrike is not a staff skill but a scepter skill... yes, you don't want to be exposed to the long-ranged staff skills for a long time... you will want to get up close and attack that ele face to face... and force him to switch to a weapon set that is more useful up close.

In the videos and PvP i've seen, elemenalists don't change weapons much, because they need to change elements, which gives a feel of switching weapons as well. They need to be out of combat to switch weapons too, i believe

[Centaur]

In the videos and PvP i've seen, elemenalists don't change weapons much, because they need to change elements, which gives a feel of switching weapons as well. They need to be out of combat to switch weapons too, i believe

Yeah, you're right. The ele has the four different attunements to switch between (each of which also has its own role), switching weapons is apparently only possible outside of combat (though at the moment, I'm not so sure about that part anymore... we've seen videos where you can just activate a different weapon from your inventory while in combat)
But note that "outside of combat" is a pretty loose term in GW2... if you're not attacking anyone, and no one is attacking you (even if there is a large battle going on around you) you're effectively "outside of combat" and are able to switch weapons.

[Algroshaw]

Even so, I think most elementalists will stick to 1 weapon setup per battle (a lot might change it up from bg to bg for fun, but most will stick to one per battle)

[ComplexNuber]

If you can change weapons in combat as an ele, we will definitely see weapon swapping in high-end PvP, and highly likely in mid-end PvP. There are some really useful skills from every weapon set, so I imagine it would be extremely rewarding to anyone who can swap through and utilise the ridiculous amount of skills elementalists can utilise.

An ele might want to use armor of frost, from an offhand dagger, then rock barrier from a scepter for some stacked defence. Maybe then they need to escape, or run into the battle quickly, or kite away from a dangerous Thief, so they switch to staff and use windborne speed for an IMS. They can then alternate that with updraft, another IMS with an offhand dagger to maintain the move speed for a long time (forever?).

The amount of skill combinations that could be done is amazing, and I'm sure it will be a long time after GW2 release until we start to see people fully utilising what they have.

[Algroshaw]

If you can change weapons in combat as an ele, we will definitely see weapon swapping in high-end PvP, and highly likely in mid-end PvP. There are some really useful skills from every weapon set, so I imagine it would be extremely rewarding to anyone who can swap through and utilise the ridiculous amount of skills elementalists can utilise.

An ele might want to use armor of frost, from an offhand dagger, then rock barrier from a scepter for some stacked defence. Maybe then they need to escape, or run into the battle quickly, or kite away from a dangerous Thief, so they switch to staff and use windborne speed for an IMS. They can then alternate that with updraft, another IMS with an offhand dagger to maintain the move speed for a long time (forever?).

The amount of skill combinations that could be done is amazing, and I'm sure it will be a long time after GW2 release until we start to see people fully utilising what they have.

I can almost guarentee that it won't happen. People will stick to one weapon set per fight, normally.. there are 4+ viable weapon set ups. 100 skills would be too much to manage. Plus you need to be out of combat

[Armory]

I can almost guarentee that it won't happen. People will stick to one weapon set per fight, normally.. there are 4+ viable weapon set ups. 100 skills would be too much to manage. Plus you need to be out of combat

Well, you really can't guarantee it.. I know from my own personal experience that high rated comps tend to be very cutting edge, I know myself when playing arena on my rogue/warrior we used all sorts of little tricks to get the edge, whether it be mods or macros.. I had weapon swap macros that would switch between daggers so I could open with a dagger with dps oriented buffs, and before my stunlock was up switch to one with a weaponchain so they'd blow their disarm, then I could switch back. Had macros that would do all sorts of things, focus target this and that, main target, friendly, etc etc. Reason I have a naga and g19 is so I could get ahead in the competitive scene and boy did it help. Having the extra buttons, extra skills at my disposal, probably upwards of at least 60+ different skills.

And we know that we can swap offhand weapons in combat, so whether main hand or if this is even working as intended remains to be seen.. We'll see! I know for a fact that if we can switch in combat, I've got plenty of Gkeys to figure out some macros for swapping/targetting.

[Algroshaw]

Well, you really can't guarantee it.. I know from my own personal experience that high rated comps tend to be very cutting edge, I know myself when playing arena on my rogue/warrior we used all sorts of little tricks to get the edge, whether it be mods or macros.. I had weapon swap macros that would switch between daggers so I could open with a dagger with dps oriented buffs, and before my stunlock was up switch to one with a weaponchain so they'd blow their disarm, then I could switch back. Had macros that would do all sorts of things, focus target this and that, main target, friendly, etc etc. Reason I have a naga and g19 is so I could get ahead in the competitive scene and boy did it help. Having the extra buttons, extra skills at my disposal, probably upwards of at least 60+ different skills.

And we know that we can swap offhand weapons in combat, so whether main hand or if this is even working as intended remains to be seen.. We'll see! I know for a fact that if we can switch in combat, I've got plenty of Gkeys to figure out some macros for swapping/targetting.

You can NOT switch weapons in combat as an elementalist.

WoW isn't anything like gw2. Switching to sword and bord, or weapons to apply different poisons is easy, and you don't need to be out of combat. And focus kick, blind, gouge, etc. isn't very hard either.

Weapons in gw2 change the entire skillset, and cannot be used in combat as a elementalist. This is different than a focus shadowstep kick macro or something.. It changes the skills themelves, and managing 100 spells won't be viable in PvP. Sure, people will definitely open their bags and swich weapons for speed buffs, experiment with different AoE, etc. between fights for fun, but in competitive pvp, as an elementalist, people will stick to one skillset for a battle. They might change it if they see a certain comp that would be better faught with a different weapon, but elementalists won't change their weapon like other classes.
Just watch the competitive PvP of the arenanet team. the ele in that video did not change his weaponset once.

[Armory]

You can NOT switch weapons in combat as an elementalist.

WoW isn't anything like gw2. Switching to sword and bord, or weapons to apply different poisons is easy, and you don't need to be out of combat. And focus kick, blind, gouge, etc. isn't very hard either.

Weapons in gw2 change the entire skillset, and cannot be used in combat as a elementalist. This is different than a focus shadowstep kick macro or something.. It changes the skills themelves, and managing 100 spells won't be viable in PvP. Sure, people will definitely open their bags and swich weapons for speed buffs, experiment with different AoE, etc. between fights for fun, but in competitive pvp, as an elementalist, people will stick to one skillset for a battle. They might change it if they see a certain comp that would be better faught with a different weapon, but elementalists won't change their weapon like other classes.
Just watch the competitive PvP of the arenanet team. the ele in that video did not change his weaponset once.

Unless you've been to gamescom or pax or eurogamer or whatever and tested the game itself, you really don't know that. Just because he didn't switch weapons doesn't mean you can't, as majority of the people believe that you can't swap weapons on any class in combat which has been proven not to be true at all in the case of offhand weapons. My guess, which is just that - but since it's working on the same 2ndary mechanics of right click equip, is that as an elementalist you can probably right click on a new offhand and equip it in combat, just like you can with a Necromancer or the other classes. You might not have access to the weapon swap button the other classes do, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't swap out weapons for other skills. I think you're completely wrong on the competitive side of weapon switching in pvp, those who have access to more skills have more choices at their disposal. I know I can manage a plethora of skills/buttons, and plan on doing it to the fullest potential in order to gain every and any advantage against my opponent. That's the core of competitive pvp right there.

Try to understand that a for every key bound to a specific action I want to accomplish can be considered it's own spell. Focus fireball is it's own spell, Focus kick.. Targetted teammate heal without losing my original target.. Etc etc.. Each of these has it's own function, and therefore can be considered it's own skill. Those who can manage all these, which was around 60+ for me, gain a tremendous edge over someone who has to switch targets in order to do something. Good discussion, keep it up!

[Nem]

Actually it's already been said that Eles can't switch weapon sets mid combat, attunements taking their spot.

[Algroshaw]

Actually it's already been said that Eles can't switch weapon sets mid combat, attunements taking their spot.
^ this..

I've been glad in WoW on a rogue, warrior, and a mage.. You'e really overplaying it.. A focus skill is just he same skill trgeted at a different target.
real men don't use focus macros. they use /cast [@arena1], arena2, and arena3 macros. haha :P

You canot switch weapons in combat, only attunements. It has been confirmed many times

[Armory]

Until I see video of an Elementalist that opens his inventory, right clicks on an offhand while in combat and it gives him the You can't equip that now message, I won't believe it. Because there's also this idea going around that you can't change weapons in combat, when we know and have proof that this isn't the case and you can switch offhand weapons (Haven't documented main hand yet) in combat, despite it 'being confirmed' that you can't switch in combat.

[Algroshaw]

Until I see video of an Elementalist that opens his inventory, right clicks on an offhand while in combat and it gives him the You can't equip that now message, I won't believe it. Because there's also this idea going around that you can't change weapons in combat, when we know and have proof that this isn't the case and you can switch offhand weapons (Haven't documented main hand yet) in combat, despite it 'being confirmed' that you can't switch in combat.

It is not confirmed, and it is not an idea. everyone knows you can change your weapons. thats what gw2 is about.
elementalists are different though.

[Armory]

You seem to be missing what I'm saying. Weapon swapping via the weapon swap key is what's confirmed. It's been confirmed that you only get 2 weapon sets. What the community 'confirms' but is wrong is that you're limited to only 2 weapon sets.. As you can right click and select equip to override your offhand weapon (confirmed) and potentially your mainhand as well (unconfirmed).

Weapon set 1 has 6 skills.
Weapon set 2 has 6 skills.

What the community believes is that you're limited to these 12 weapon skills (specifically weapon skills, the other class based skills aren't important in the discussion).

When in reality you can swap out your offhand weapon during combat via right click -->Equip and have access to 2 more skills on each of the other offhand weapons.

This leads me to believe that a elementalist, just as the other classes, might be able to right click --> Equip a different offhand during combat to have access to additional skills.

[Ruse]

^If that's true, I don't see it as being intended behavior. I wouldn't expect that to make it to launch.

Besides, I'm not sure how much of an advantage opening your inventory and right-clicking would be in the heat of the action anyways, but that's maybe just me.

[ComplexNuber]

If it makes it's way into the actual release (ie. It's not a bug), which I doubt, the hardcore PvP guilds would unquestionably do it. People do absolutely ANYTHING for ANY advantage at that level. Just look at equipment swapping in GW1 and how popular it is in high end PvP. High energy weapon sets, low energy sets, physical AR sets, elemental AR sets, etc. etc. Ask someone who's in a high end PvP guild in GW1 how many weapon sets they have and how frequently they use them. Obviously weapons work completely different in GW1 but the concept of getting an advantage is the same.

The advantage is tiny, but at high end PvP any advantage is a huge advantage. As for the inconvenience of opening the inventory, it could just be left open all the time (; The inventory screen is compact enough.

Whether it would be used for ordinary play is a bit more of a gray area, I suspect it would but only for very specialised things (ie. maintaining an increased move speed). I do doubt it'll still work this way in the final release of the game - lets keep in mind that beta is beta and although GW2 looks *really* polished it's still in alpha/beta it shouldn't surprise that we see things like this.

[Ruse]

Weapon swapping was a hotkey away in GW1. Rightclicking to swap is a whole different ballgame, lol. Maybe I'm just bad at clicking, lol, but that seems awful to me.

Anyways, I think we both agree that it won't be that way in release, so the point is probably moot, lol.

[Armory]

Weapon swapping was a hotkey away in GW1. Rightclicking to swap is a whole different ballgame, lol. Maybe I'm just bad at clicking, lol, but that seems awful to me.

Anyways, I think we both agree that it won't be that way in release, so the point is probably moot, lol.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they took it out at release, but it seems like a very simple mechanic for them to have missed, so in that sense I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they kept it in. Maybe it doesn't apply to mainhand, maybe only offhand.. Who knows..

My real questions aren't regarding if right click equip will work, but more along the lines of is there scripting we can type similar to WoW to do it automatically.. /equip slot2 Warhorn of Might, for example. Then I just plug that script into my G19 and assign it to a Gkey and it will instantly swap it out for me. If it doesn't work, I might be able to assign the right click equip sequence to the item, keep my bag open and then Gkey it that way.. Exciting exciting.

And of course, if it's not in final release it doesn't matter anyway =P

[Ruse]

I hate it when games allow scripting on that level. The little I played Rift really turned me off of that whole concept when I realized what I'd need to do to be really effective. If players need to script to be efficient, then the game is poorly designed. (Imo, of course).

...now adding the ability to do text/emote macros? Yes please.

[Nem]

I don't really get what you're aiming at Armory ... you hope that elementalists will be given 8+ mid battle skill sets while other classes will get only 2? That would be just so wrong.

[Armory]

I hate it when games allow scripting on that level. The little I played Rift really turned me off of that whole concept when I realized what I'd need to do to be really effective. If players need to script to be efficient, then the game is poorly designed. (Imo, of course).

...now adding the ability to do text/emote macros? Yes please.

It's not about the game requiring player to script to be effective, it's about those of us who go the extra mile to do it so we can gain an edge. I do agree to a certain extent that there needs to be some streamlining in order for the game to feel fluid and fun..

There's a lot of little things we did in arena to get the edge over competition, none of it was really required although there's a few mods out there that thankfully weren't in common practice when I was doing arena. Another example was a sap macro I could spam that I had worked it out so it would try to target anything within my sap range, and sap it. I'd spam that key while looking for the enemy druid or rogue, and 90% of the time I'd get the sap off before their team did. This was because my macro was more effective and efficient than the enemy who didn't know how to do it, and as soon as they saw me they had to click on me then try to sap, or press tab and then their sap button, but by then I had already targeted them and sapped them because the delay between the tab portion of my macro and the sap portion was .25seconds.

Some people call this cheap, I call it ingenuity. There's ingenuity, and skill. Sap macros, focus kick macros, using the tools you have in order to be the most effective and coupling them together in interesting ways.. That's ingenuity. Vanishing death coils, blinking charges, vanishing cheap shots.. that's skill.

@Nem I'm not hoping anything. I'm not even playing an elementalist, I'm simply having a discussion about game mechanics as they are currently, and how people are mistaken on information that's out there.

[Algroshaw]

It's not about the game requiring player to script to be effective, it's about those of us who go the extra mile to do it so we can gain an edge. I do agree to a certain extent that there needs to be some streamlining in order for the game to feel fluid and fun..

There's a lot of little things we did in arena to get the edge over competition, none of it was really required although there's a few mods out there that thankfully weren't in common practice when I was doing arena. Another example was a sap macro I could spam that I had worked it out so it would try to target anything within my sap range, and sap it. I'd spam that key while looking for the enemy druid or rogue, and 90% of the time I'd get the sap off before their team did. This was because my macro was more effective and efficient than the enemy who didn't know how to do it, and as soon as they saw me they had to click on me then try to sap, or press tab and then their sap button, but by then I had already targeted them and sapped them because the delay between the tab portion of my macro and the sap portion was .25seconds.

Some people call this cheap, I call it ingenuity. There's ingenuity, and skill. Sap macros, focus kick macros, using the tools you have in order to be the most effective and coupling them together in interesting ways.. That's ingenuity. Vanishing death coils, blinking charges, vanishing cheap shots.. that's skill.

@Nem I'm not hoping anything. I'm not even playing an elementalist, I'm simply having a discussion about game mechanics as they are currently, and how people are mistaken on information that's out there.

Every single rogue that is level 85 that PvPs has a sap macro; it is not ingenuity, but comon practice.
and even 1600 rated players use focus blind, sap, gouge, kick, disarm macros. Hell, mercader is 2400+ and doesn't even use gouge or focus macros. It isn't skill; it is effectiveness. pressing your focus blind bindng is more effective than targeting then blinding.
I have a glad mage and I don't jump charges. I just jump the charge.

[Armory]

Not exactly sure what you're getting at with your post, since you pretty much restated everything I said and then confused your last sentences hehe. I haven't played seriously since season4, back then things were a bit different mate, the common practice of today was being pioneered when I was doing serious arena. Keep it comin though, interesting discussions =D

[Algroshaw]

Not exactly sure what you're getting at with your post, since you pretty much restated everything I said and then confused your last sentences hehe. I haven't played seriously since season4, back then things were a bit different mate, the common practice of today was being pioneered when I was doing serious arena. Keep it comin though, interesting discussions =D

hahahah, yeah, slight contradiction. I meant I don't blink them, i jump them.

[Ruse]

It's not about the game requiring player to script to be effective, it's about those of us who go the extra mile to do it so we can gain an edge.

Precisely what you describe after this is what I hate, lol. The person doing the best...whatever SAP is (to me it means "stop all presses" but I'm guessing that's not what you mean xD) shouldn't be doing that because they set up one keypress to look at certain variables then react in a specific way -- all with an efficiency a human can't match.

The best person at sapping should be the one who has the best reflexes and reads the field the best to choose appropriate targets.

[Armory]

Sap is a skill rogues use to incapacitate enemies outside of combat. While I agree, there's always going to be tricks and more effective methods. People can argue that the person who gets the first sap should be the one that's the most skilled(?) at clicking and reacting to the situation.. However down to the core concept of it, it's like arguing clicking vs keybinding.. One is much more effective than the other, and gives you an edge. To an extreme, yeah there's a point where too much automation in combat makes it stale and takes the emphasis away from skill, but on menial things like tab targeting and pressing my skill before the other guy.. Skill isn't really involved in the equation. If anything, i'd say the guy that uses ingenuity and methods that are outside the box to be the better player, as it's not purely just about button mashing haha.

Skill is subjective, based on the perspectives of measurement. Kind of funny but I guess competitive PvP has a bit of an Asuran tone to it.. Brains not brawn. I understand that there's always going to be someone who's better than me, but damned if I let that stop me from hanging in there.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't cheat, but manipulating in game mechanics to my advantage? Hell yeah. I got called a cheater once on my druid for Warstomping a rogue while his cloak of shadows was up. Not sure if it's changed, but Warstomp at this point never misses and wasn't an effect that could be dodged/resisted, so it would completely void his cloak and let me cyclone him. Same as a warrior, land that disarm during evasion etc etc. People didn't understand the mechanics of Warstomp and called me out for exploit/cheating.. Was working as intended, and because I did a lot of experimenting and found it out, gave me quite an edge. That's where brains > brawn. haha

I take this approach with macroing and scripting, if it's allowed and I can figure it out, brains > brawn.

[ComplexNuber]

I have a programmable keyboard myself and use macros all the time, but most MMOs have heavy restrictions on what you are allowed to do (not that they can stop you on the fly, but they might eventually ban you). I'm pretty sure WoW has a policy of "if a macro has a delay in it, it's illegal", but I've only played some 10-15 hours of WoW so I don't know for certain. That kind of "no delay" policy is pretty popular because it means people have to actively do things and they can't turn their keyboard into a botting program.

Personally I would never even consider going back to a non-gaming keyboard. It's one of those things that when you try them you can't go back. If you follow the restrictions most games use the advantage isn't as great as you expect, but for other things it's amazing. I use macros for coding all the time - imagine how much time it saves me when I can press one button and my keyboard prints out all of "Console.WriteLine("");", when I have to type that out at least a hundred times in any one program. I love it :D

[ComplexNuber]

Double post, Sorry >.< Delete if you like...

[Nem]

Uh, question for the WoW dudes - where do I make my skill icons show the exact stats of the respective skills. For example, I don't want it to say ''Deals a huge damage on a very wounded target'' when I mouse over my Execute. I want it to say ''Deals x damage on targets below 20% health''.

[Armory]

like a #showtooltip Skill Name ?

[Nem]

Showtooltip shows the description of the skill, but what I actually want to do is to change the way the description works :D. I want it to actually show me the skill in numbers, not just a ''BIG ASS DAMAGE/HEAL'' kind of description. It was that way during the time I played before Cataclysm, I believe I quit just before the Ulduar patch.

[Algroshaw]

Showtooltip shows the description of the skill, but what I actually want to do is to change the way the description works :D. I want it to actually show me the skill in numbers, not just a ''BIG ASS DAMAGE/HEAL'' kind of description. It was that way during the time I played before Cataclysm, I believe I quit just before the Ulduar patch.
that has nothing to do with the macro, there is an option in the interface panel, that is something like "beginner tooltips enabled" or something. disable that.

And the rogue that gets the first sap is NOT the most skilled armory. Lol. It is complete luck of the draw.
The one that can come back from losing the sap is the more skilled one.

[Nem]

Thanks, that stuff pissed me off so much.

[Armory]

that has nothing to do with the macro, there is an option in the interface panel, that is something like "beginner tooltips enabled" or something. disable that.

And the rogue that gets the first sap is NOT the most skilled armory. Lol. It is complete luck of the draw.
The one that can come back from losing the sap is the more skilled one.

If you truly believe it's random, completely upto luck, then you're doing it wrong =D There's a reason in my matches 90% of the I got the sap off first.. I don't equate that to being skilled however.

[Nem]

First sap IS luck in large portion of the cases, you can't deny that. Of course, the better you are at predicting your opponent's movement, the larger chance of you hitting the first one is. Still, you can't call that being skilled, there is just to much random luck involved.

[Ruse]

People didn't understand the mechanics of Warstomp and called me out for exploit/cheating.. Was working as intended, and because I did a lot of experimenting and found it out, gave me quite an edge. That's where brains > brawn. haha

I take this approach with macroing and scripting, if it's allowed and I can figure it out, brains > brawn.

See, I consider these two very different things :) One is knowing your skills extremely well (and the other person's, which is a big part of PvP), which is great. In AoC, for instance, PoMs had an invulnerability bubble that wouldn't let you cast offensive spells while you had it up...but there were still ways to do damage if you knew and tested. The other, macroing and scripting, is something that makes me not want to play a game, lol.

I'm not saying it's not clever...I just don't like it personally.

[Armory]

First sap IS luck in large portion of the cases, you can't deny that. Of course, the better you are at predicting your opponent's movement, the larger chance of you hitting the first one is. Still, you can't call that being skilled, there is just to much random luck involved.

That's what you guys are failing to understand though, especially in high rated elo. If it was truly up to chance and random elements, we'd have very little control over how the games play out. I'm not exaggerating when I'm talking upwards of 90% of matches we'd get our sap off first, especially in the first few seasons of arena. The purpose of scripting, macroing and all that jazz is to streamline things to be more efficient so that you limit the amount of random variables in a given match. So yeah, I totally deny and disagree that you're leaving sap up to luck. My teammates positioning helps eliminate a portion of random variables, forcing the enemy to engage at certain angles otherwise they leave themselves super vulnerable to being burst down or unable to peel for their teammates, my macros being much faster and efficient in some cases gave me the upper hand on someone who's not using optimal macroing or not using macros at all.

I don't equate this out to skill, because getting the first sap isn't something to brag about lol, and it definitely isn't up to luck or out of your control. If you got sapped first, it's because you did something wrong. Whether you were out of position, failed to swivel the mouse in the optimal search pattern, weren't spamming your sap macro fast enough, didn't force their rogue to open by engaging.. the list goes on. The only time I'd give luck a real justification is if you suddenly lagged out, because that you have little control over.. But even that, at it's core, is your fault for not having a more dependable connection. Science nut in me coming out on a bit of this lol


I'm not saying it's not clever...I just don't like it personally.
And to each his/her own =D It will be interesting to see what's possible in GW2, I'm not worried about scripting/macroing either way though, GW2 seems like a solid enough game where certain mechanics (Like vanish for example) won't require a macro to make it reliable.

[Winterbay]

I think I see why I don't like PvP: I quite like random elements. Being able to plan the smallest thing in advance makes playing boring :)

And being able to do something complicated by the press of a button that looks at what things around you and decides what is the best option sounds pretty boring to me. I'd rather make that decision at the time and fail if I get it wrong than always be right.

[Nem]

Nah, PvP only looks like it's planned ahead. It's a real mess once you get in a fight most of the time. I believe most of people who try PvP give it up because they get swamped by all the possible actions they can take in order to avoid or force certain situations on their opponents. Of course, there are the basic algorithms (as in the order of the stuff you need to do, not programming anything) that you have to know/have , a prime example of an essential element being the Sap macro that's keeping this discussion up because it allows you to hit stealthed opponents in a small time frame where they appear visible (it happens when they are right in front of you, unless they have a lower rank of Stealth) and Sap will uncloak them, while non macroed Sap doesn't auto target them. After that, PvP is all about adapting to situations, because you can only guess what your opponent will do next - example (from GW, since I'm not really familiar with all the skill changes that happened in WoW during the time I didn't play it): enemy monk is low on health and kiting you, you use Rush to catch up with him - now , the monk can : stop to heal up and hope you will be bad and waste your Bull's Strike on him, continue kiting and rely on the second monk in the team to keep him up long enough for the rest of their team to attack you in order to force you back in your monks' spell range, or to slow you down to take the pressure off their backline, while you (back on the beginning of the chain of events) can : chase the monk to finish him off yourself , where you can't know if he'll stop moving for a split second to evade the knockdown from Bull's Strike, if he stops, it's a chance for your midline or eventually another frontliner to catch up with him to knock him down/remove enchantments from them/disable their frontliners so they don't disable you etc. (note, this is only a small portion of what could have happened) Now , back to the beginning again - your Bull's Strike might have been on recharge and that would trigger (depending on a ton of other variables) an entirely or slightly different chain of events. All of that does or does not happen in a very small time frame - seconds or split seconds. Barely anything is completely random there, but unpredictable - might or might not be.

[ComplexNuber]

*Crushed alive by wall of text* (;

[Nem]

Haha yeah, I kinda went ''wtf'' when I actually saw how much I wrote. :D

[Algroshaw]

I think I see why I don't like PvP: I quite like random elements. Being able to plan the smallest thing in advance makes playing boring :)

And being able to do something complicated by the press of a button that looks at what things around you and decides what is the best option sounds pretty boring to me. I'd rather make that decision at the time and fail if I get it wrong than always be right.

high end MMO gameplay is all planned, not just pvp. PvE is planned down to every single spell the bosses use.
PvP isn't planned, its just knowing how to react in certain situations and anticipating the enemies next move. This doesn't feel planned, its just knowing how to react to different things in the world.

[Winterbay]

Let me just then say that: If you need to plan that much ahead of anything in a game I'm not into it :)

I quite like being able to bring with me just about anything and do okish, you should not be able to gimp yourself in a game (even though in GW it's nto so much of a problem since you can respec easily), which was one of the main problems I had with Oblivion.