Does this count as an "exploit"?

[The_Reginald]

So I'm sure you are all aware of that 3000 player ban which was incredibly unjust. I mean the players did nothing wrong it was the programmers fault ffs. Anyway I'm wondering if this would be banable. If you buy items on the trading post and then sell them higher is that an exploit? I mean if you bought something that was priced low by a player and than used a salvage kit to get the raw materials and those were priced higher would that be an "exploit"?

[Foxpaw]

No, this is a common practice both in most MMO's andin real life! :) In WoW it was called 'playing the auction house' and it's about strategy and playing the economics of the game. ;) Hope this helps!

[The_Reginald]

Well thats what I figured but apparently arenanet is insane and will ban people for unfair reasons

[auhfel]

I also think the bans were unjust and handled completely incorrectly, but the premise of what they did and what you are presenting are completely different. You're basically just flipping items, which happens all the time. It'd probably actually be harder to flip items with GW2's trading post.

[Crisp]

Despite the obvious troll attempt in this thread (btw, come on, people bought THOUSANDS of the items, you have to know something is wrong there), no, it's not bannable, it's just playing the trading post. Now, if you, I don't know, knowingly bought thousands of cultural items from a vendor at an extremely cheap price, knowing that the price was messed up, and then proceeded to sell them, then yes, that is a bannable offense ;)

[iDwarf]

An exploit is when a bug in the game is abused. Like buying a ton of stuff for 20 karma and exploiting a bug made by the programmers. They were given a second chance and most were only suspended for 3 days. However, people who were banned decided to keep exploiting them after being suspended and were permabanned. ArenaNet did the right thing by banning them and showing they have a no tolerance policy for exploiting the game.

[The_Reginald]

Troll attempt? Spare me

[The_Reginald]

An exploit is when a bug in the game is abused. Like buying a ton of stuff for 20 karma and exploiting a bug made by the programmers. They were given a second chance and most were only suspended for 3 days. However, people who were banned decided to keep exploiting them after being suspended and were permabanned. ArenaNet did the right thing by banning them and showing they have a no tolerance policy for exploiting the game.
How do you know that people kept doing it after they were banned?

[thezeronumber]

Not another one of these.

Learn the facts, the come back and say "it was unfair".

[Spunkmeyer]

1. OP is dumb.

2. No, it's not. There's a huge difference (refer back to point 1).

[auhfel]

Oh please. They obviously kept some kind of records (They were able to tell to what extent each player exploited) so it should have been a simple 2-3 day ban and a rollback of that character. They never should have went straight to permabans, that was just flat-out silly. that's the lazy man's solution.

[Crisp]

So, asking an extremely obvious rhetorical question to take a shot at A-Net over an extremely fair warning to players (as Dwarf said above me, only people who continued the exploit got more then a 3 day ban) about abusing an exploit in game isn't trolling? Yeaaaahhh....

Anyway, it's nice to see a gaming company who stops exploits that will end up hurting the game.

[Jim Hunter]

I really can't wait for the official forums to go up so we can get rid of some of these people that want to show up and cry about being banned.

[Spunkmeyer]

Oh please. They obviously kept some kind of records (They were able to tell to what extent each player exploited) so it should have been a simple 2-3 day ban and a rollback of that character. They never should have went straight to permabans, that was just flat-out silly. that's the lazy man's solution.

No. It's setting an example so stupid kids will think twice.

[The_Reginald]

1. OP is dumb.

2. No, it's not. There's a huge difference (refer back to point 1).

Do tell what the big difference is. There is HARDLY a difference. People bought items from a vendor at a low cost which may have been because of a programmers mistake but nonetheless they were buying low and selling high just like people do on the trading post. I fail to see the difference.

Edited by mod.

[auhfel]

So, asking an extremely obvious rhetorical question to take a shot at A-Net over an extremely fair warning to players (as Dwarf said above me, only people who continued the exploit got more then a 3 day ban) about abusing an exploit in game isn't trolling? Yeaaaahhh....

Anyway, it's nice to see a gaming company who stops exploits that will end up hurting the game.

You make it sound like it went better than it actually did. That's not even how it went down. Players were instantly permabanned, and then after extreme protest by the GW2 community, they were then offered a chance at redemption via a change from permanent to 3-day. That was just A-net realizing they made a huge mistake and gave a really bad image to their game and company, and were attempting to make amends without saying that they screwed up.

[The_Reginald]

I really can't wait for the official forums to go up so we can get rid of some of these people that want to show up and cry about being banned.
I wasn't banned lol

[auhfel]

No. It's setting an example so stupid kids will think twice.

No, that's like executing everyone for any crime, no matter what the level of crime was. Maybe we should carry out the same principle with the law, just execute everyone who does anything wrong so that everyone is afraid from the examples made.

[The_Reginald]

So, asking an extremely obvious rhetorical question to take a shot at A-Net over an extremely fair warning to players (as Dwarf said above me, only people who continued the exploit got more then a 3 day ban) about abusing an exploit in game isn't trolling? Yeaaaahhh....

Anyway, it's nice to see a gaming company who stops exploits that will end up hurting the game.
According to the reddit post there was no warning

[thezeronumber]

People bought items from a vendor at a low cost which may have been because of a programmers mistake but nonetheless they were buying low and selling high just like people do on the trading post. I fail to see the difference.

There is a huge difference. One is an exploit and one is the first rule of selling and purchasing throughout the world.

[Spunkmeyer]

No, that's like executing everyone for any crime, no matter what the level of crime was. Maybe we should carry out the same principle with the law, just execute everyone who does anything wrong so that everyone is afraid from the examples made.

Except killing thousands of people is a little more extreme than banning people from a video game.

[The_Reginald]

There is a huge difference. One is an exploit and one is the first rule of selling and purchasing throughout the world.

Its not like people hacked the freaking programmers put that price in the game. Its like the government puts up a sign on the highway saying the speed limit is 150 miles an hour and they start arresting people for reckless driving even though that sign was put there by the government.

[auhfel]

Except killing thousands of people is a little more extreme than banning people from a video game.

You failed to see the parallel. The point was, equivalent punishments for each crime. Permabanning for one instance of a 'bug' which was largely the fault of the company, is hardly an equal punishment for the crime.

[MissHunbun]

Suck my balls you pessimist *****. Do tell what the big difference is. There is HARDLY a difference. People bought items from a vendor at a low cost which may have been because of a programmers mistake but nonetheless they were buying low and selling high just like people do on the trading post. I fail to see the difference.

I think you aren't the kind of person who belongs in this particular community. And that kind of language is totally unacceptable. Certainly, he shouldn't have called you dumb, but nonetheless you could have responded with some maturity.

If you really honestly aren't able to tell the difference between EXPLOITING an OBVIOUS error to get rich, and just playing the game normally, well, you've got issues, or you're choosing to remain ignorant.

[The_Reginald]

You failed to see the parallel. The point was, equivalent punishments for each crime. Permabanning for one instance of a 'bug' which was largely the fault of the company, is hardly an equal punishment for the crime.

Here Here

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I think you aren't the kind of person who belongs in this community. And that kind of language is totally unacceptable. Certainly, he shouldn't have called you dumb, but nonetheless you could have responded with some maturity.

If you really honestly aren't able to tell the difference between EXPLOITING and OBVIOUS error to get rich, and just playing the game normally, well, you've got issues, or you're choosing to remain ignorant.

spare me

[Naolin]

Suck my balls you pessimist *****. Do tell what the big difference is. There is HARDLY a difference. People bought items from a vendor at a low cost which may have been because of a programmers mistake but nonetheless they were buying low and selling high just like people do on the trading post. I fail to see the difference.

Because one was an exploit and one isn't. BTW I never agreed with the perma bans, but the fact that you can't see the obvious differences is beyond me.

With one your trying to take advantage of something broken in the game. You've already received a pretty unanimous answer of how the second is common in a game like this. Just because they both involve buying something that is low price does not make them similar.

[thezeronumber]

Its not like people hacked the freaking programmers put that price in the game. Its like the government puts up a sign on the highway saying the speed limit is 150 miles an hour and they start arresting people for reckless driving even though that sign was put there by the government.

That is a terrible comparison.

The vendor had everything else at the same or similar figure. One item was 1,000 times less than the rest. It's pretty obvious it was not intentional. People bought hundreds of these items purely to sell them on and create a gargantuan amount of currency. They knew what they were doing was wrong yet they still did it, again and again and again. There is no doubt they were exploiting the system and the bans were fair considering how far these people went to abuse it.

It happened, it was understood and it's over. There is nothing more to discuss. Anyone disagreeing with this has either been banned for the right reasons or is the kind of person that cannot drop a subject because their arrogance is through the roof. Or they are a troll looking to kick up a fuss to fill the void they used to call "humanity".

[MissHunbun]

spare me

No. You asked a ridiculous question that was clearly loaded with your own ignorance, everyone has responded in a similar manner explaining the clear and obvious difference between making a profit and exploiting an error.

The people who got banned all bought numerous weapons with the intent to exploit it. People who bought one or two didn't. That is the difference, and if you can't tell the difference maybe you shouldn't be playing this game.

[thezeronumber]

If you really honestly aren't able to tell the difference between EXPLOITING an OBVIOUS error to get rich, and just playing the game normally, well, you've got issues, or you're choosing to remain ignorant.

spare me

Hit the nail on the head with that response. Clearly a self-righteous and ignorant individual.

[The_Reginald]

Because one was an exploit and one isn't. BTW I never agreed with the perma bans, but the fact that you can't see the obvious differences is beyond me.

With one your trying to take advantage of something broken in the game. You've already received a pretty unanimous answer of how the second is common in a game like this. Just because they both involve buying something that is low price does not make them similar.

Oh for god sake I understand that a mispriced item by a vendor could obviously destroy the economy. The difference im talking about is whether or not the players are doing something wrong. Its not wrong doing by the player its wrong doing by the programmers.

- - - Updated - - -


Hit the nail on the head with that response. Clearly a self-righteous and ignorant individual.

Oh get it together so I chewed out some jerk is that really so wrong?

- - - Updated - - -


No. You asked a ridiculous question that was clearly loaded with your own ignorance, everyone has responded in a similar manner explaining the clear and obvious difference between making a profit and exploiting an error.

The people who got banned all bought numerous weapons with the intent to exploit it. People who bought one or two didn't. That is the difference, and if you can't tell the difference maybe you shouldn't be playing this game.

I mean spare me to your statement about me cussing out that guy not the game exploits

[Edward M. Grant]

Permabanning for one instance of a 'bug' which was largely the fault of the company, is hardly an equal punishment for the crime.

I remember a similar situation in Everquest, where some NPC was selling items that they clearly shouldn't be selling, for a price they clearly shouldn't have been selling for. When we discovered this, most of my guild stopped playing for a few days because we knew they'd announce a server-wide rollback. Everyone was punished with losing a couple of days of their gameplay because some people exploited an obvious bug.

I'd much rather see exploiters perma-banned than everyone rolled back to remove the consequences of their actions.

[MissHunbun]

I think you fail to understand the definition of the word "exploit".
You see an error, you know it's an error and you say to yourself "I am going to exploit this for personal gain by buying dozens of these and reselling them to make a profit."

That is an exploit. People were banned for this. Whether you agree with the punishment or not doesn't really matter. ANet has a no tolerance policy, clearly. The people who admitted to doing wrong had their accounts given back, the people who are stupid, didn't.

Maybe now people will learn to report a error like this, rather than screwing over their community by taking advantage of it.

I told you to watch you language because the mods don't tolerate people attacking each other with insults. I'm just giving you fair warning that you could get crap for that.

Edit: Whoops, too late. See post below me.

[Centaur]

1. OP is dumb.


Suck my balls you pessimist *****.

Guys, let me make one thing very clear: we do NOT tolerate name calling or any form of personal attacks here!
So get your acts straight and treat each other with respect!

[Tufelhunden]

I wish more games would ban exploiters,looking at you Trion and the CQ exploit. So yes it was an exploit and yes the abusers, buying thousands of weapons to sell deserve to be perma banned, IMO. Which btw anet appears to agree with. :)

[Urnbak]

1. OP is dumb.

2. No, it's not. There's a huge difference (refer back to point 1).

Don't insult poeple it's not big and it's not clever.

[Ruse]

Let's put it this way. Let's say there was a bug ingame -- the devs' fault, surely -- that let me run around one-shotting everyone in PvP, or one-shotting elder dragons. If I used this, devs' fault or no, I would expect to be banned.

This is the same situation, except it happened to involve an obviously incorrect price vs. an obviously incorrect damage output.

[The_Reginald]

I think you fail to understand the definition of the word "exploit".
You see an error, you know it's an error and you say to yourself "I am going to exploit this for personal gain by buying dozens of these and reselling them to make a profit."

That is an exploit. People were banned for this. Whether you agree with the punishment or not doesn't really matter. ANet has a no tolerance policy, clearly. The people who admitted to doing wrong had their accounts given back, the people who are stupid, didn't.

Maybe now people will learn to report a error like this, rather than screwing over their community by taking advantage of it.

I told you to watch you language because the mods don't tolerate people attacking each other with insults. I'm just giving you fair warning that you could get crap for that.

Edit: Whoops, too late. See post below me.

Well that's just my opinion that its the programmers fault not the players. I'm aware of how forums work so no need to keep reminding me that calling people names could get me banned jesus.

[Keruptis]

Oh for god sake I understand that a mispriced item by a vendor could obviously destroy the economy. The difference im talking about is whether or not the players are doing something wrong. Its not wrong doing by the player its wrong doing by the programmers.

- - - Updated - - -




Oh get it together so I chewed out some jerk is that really so wrong?

- - - Updated - - -



I mean spare me to your statement about me cussing out that guy not the game exploits

heres line 17 from the ToS

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.

as soon as the players starting using the programming slip-up in a benificial manner is exactly when it became "wrong doing" on their part

[The_Reginald]

Let's put it this way. Let's say there was a bug ingame -- the devs' fault, surely -- that let me run around one-shotting everyone in PvP, or one-shotting elder dragons. If I used this, devs' fault or no, I would expect to be banned.

This is the same situation, except it happened to involve an obviously incorrect price vs. an obviously incorrect damage output.

Well yes that's a good point but I still don't think its fair to ban the players for doing something the programmers put in even if it was an obvious mistake. IMO bottom line blame the programmer that messed up.

[auhfel]

I remember a similar situation in Everquest, where some NPC was selling items that they clearly shouldn't be selling, for a price they clearly shouldn't have been selling for. When we discovered this, most of my guild stopped playing for a few days because we knew they'd announce a server-wide rollback. Everyone was punished with losing a couple of days of their gameplay because some people exploited an obvious bug.

I'd much rather see exploiters perma-banned than everyone rolled back to remove the consequences of their actions.

They wouldn't have to roll back everyone, just the people whom had exploited to such a degree.

On a slightly related note, people should realize that exploit does not mean to take advantage of a problem -- it simply means to take full advantage of something at all. If I see that when I crit I can add a ton of effects to my attack, I'm going to exploit crits by adding everything that modifies them, to take full advantage of each crit.

When used in the context you guys are providing it makes it seem worse then it is. I believe that if the company posesses a means to fix the problem that they let through without unjust punishments, they should absolutely do so. However, if someone whom constantly (on many more than one occassion) verbally harassed others using derogatory racial insults all the time got permanently banned, I would be all for it as it was never the company's fault for that user's behaviour. It really should work out to something like a 3-strike system -- 1st instance, 3 day ban. 2nd instance, 7 day ban. 3rd instance, perma. How arenanet handled it initially was to just flat out permaban anyone involved. that's just not appropriate, especially for an error on their part.

[The_Reginald]

heres line 17 from the ToS

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.

as soon as the players starting using the programming slip-up in a benificial manner is exactly when it became "wrong doing" on their part

Well that just seems like the gw team taking the easy way out. Blame the people using it rather than the person who put it in for them to use...

[Sir Gregoire]

I think you aren't the kind of person who belongs in this particular community. And that kind of language is totally unacceptable. Certainly, he shouldn't have called you dumb, but nonetheless you could have responded with some maturity.

If you really honestly aren't able to tell the difference between EXPLOITING an OBVIOUS error to get rich, and just playing the game normally, well, you've got issues, or you're choosing to remain ignorant.

I do apologize, I can't summon your so-called logic when u say there is a difference between exploiting and obvious error. I fail to see the difference between the two because of the fact that Arena Net banned 3000 players (Without warning) because of a mistake on Arena Net's part is just a violation of players' rights. Do you dare say that its the player's fault for acquiring currency on behalf of the programmers fault? IF the prices of certain items were out of balance, then Arena Net should patch the bug and be done with it but players should not be held accountable for their actions in game while the bug was present and nothing should be revoked from the player's possessions during the time of the "bug." By Arena Net showing this aggressive power display with their so called "right" to ban people because of their mistakes makes me wish I had not contributed to a sale of this communist company.

The players that did "exploit" the bug were innovators in a new world and should NOT be punished for finding ways to make currency. If anything they brought more realism to it and found the niches and gaps in this new and developing GW economy. Arena Net is punishing the players for just playing the game. Like I said, if it IS a bug, then it needs to be patched by Arena Net and the players should not be held accountable for taking advantage of the bug.

I can't help but see the parallels in various other circumstances that have yet to come....
Ex. 1: A player buys a powerful sword for cheap and it is unbalanced in terms of price to power ratio. He gets banned for using it. Because he is "exploiting" a bug that he may not even know is a bug.

Ex. 2: Players refuse to purchase and sell things via vendors or Black Lion Trading Company because they are afraid of getting banned for "unfair" pricing.

My list could go on and on but since I am pressed for time I must end here. I cannot express how much I am outraged by Arena Net for doing this. It takes away the freedom that a MMO is supposed to have with a free-market system that it claims to have.

I rest my case,
~Level 16 Warrior, Sir Gregoire

[Ruse]

Well yes that's a good point but I still don't think its fair to ban the players for doing something the programmers put in even if it was an obvious mistake. IMO bottom line blame the programmer that messed up.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, particularly since the TOS contradicts your views. Games will have bugs, especially ones on the scale of an MMO. People know exactly what they're doing when they abuse them. I don't consider banning at all unjust, personally.

EDIT:


Well that just seems like the gw team taking the easy way out. Blame the people using it rather than the person who put it in for them to use...

This is a total copout.

"I'm sorry that I stole that priceless artifact, officer, but you should really be blaming the curator who accidentally left the case unlocked right in front of me."

People need to start accepting responsibility for their own actions, instead of trying to always make things someone else's fault.

[auhfel]

Let's put it this way. Let's say there was a bug ingame -- the devs' fault, surely -- that let me run around one-shotting everyone in PvP, or one-shotting elder dragons. If I used this, devs' fault or no, I would expect to be banned.

This is the same situation, except it happened to involve an obviously incorrect price vs. an obviously incorrect damage output.

But it isn't the same situation. The karma exploit is handle-able and does not directly impede upon other gamer's experience of the game. There are numerous other ways they could have handled the issue, but they went straight to permabans. The 'bug' in particular did not stop other players from having fun and playing the way they wanted to. Eventually, gone unchecked, it would have caused irreparable damage to the GW2 economy. However, since they caught it early, they can prevent that from happening, so in the end nothing is harmed by the bug.

What I'm saying is, they should have went:
#1. 3-day ban, then permanent if accrued gold/items from the bug were not removed.

but what they did was:
#2. insta-permaban.

After extreme community protest, they went to #1. They handled it wrong initially, and then they realized it. That's my issue, how they went about handling it in the first place.

[Ruse]

After extreme community protest, they went to #1. They handled it wrong initially, and then they realized it. That's my issue, how they went about handling it in the first place.

I have no problems with anyone intentionally exploiting a bug getting an instant perma-ban. Imo Anet is being far too lenient on the issue. I'd much rather see temp bans for language (OK, actually, I'd rather not see bans for that at all considering there's a profanity filter) than for exploits.

[Edward M. Grant]

Well yes that's a good point but I still don't think its fair to ban the players for doing something the programmers put in even if it was an obvious mistake. IMO bottom line blame the programmer that messed up.

Presumably you also don't think it's fair to punish someone for burglary if you leave your door unlocked?

Or to take a situation that actually happened in real life, someone at a company I once worked for ran up a $30,000 bill for phone sex calls on their extension. Presumably they shouldn't have been sacked for that because the company didn't block calls to those numbers, so how could they have known they shouldn't call them?

Someone who buys one or two of an item at a low price may well have made a legitimate mistake. Someone who bought hundreds or thousands of them when they could only use a few themselves clearly knew there was a problem and was clearly exploiting it.

[The_Reginald]

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, particularly since the TOS contradicts your views. Games will have bugs, especially ones on the scale of an MMO. People know exactly what they're doing when they abuse them. I don't consider banning at all unjust, personally.

EDIT:



This is a total copout.

"I'm sorry that I stole that priceless artifact, officer, but you should really be blaming the curator who accidentally left the case unlocked right in front of me."

People need to start accepting responsibility for their own actions, instead of trying to always make things someone else's fault.
That is not the same. For that situation to be valid there would have had to have been a sign that said FREE PRICELESS ARTIFACT. The case being unlocked doesn't make it free for anyone to take.

[Ruse]

That is not the same. For that situation to be valid there would have had to have been a sign that said FREE PRICELESS ARTIFACT. The case being unlocked doesn't make it free for anyone to take.

If you say so. I'm done arguing against willful ignorance.

[Edward M. Grant]

They wouldn't have to roll back everyone, just the people whom had exploited to such a degree.

That depends entirely on the exploit. In the Everquest case people had sold most of those items to other players, many of whom had sold them on to other players and there was no way to reverse all those transactions without rolling everyone back.

[Tolfor]

Troll post is fail.

[The_Reginald]

Presumably you also don't think it's fair to punish someone for burglary if you leave your door unlocked?

Or to take a situation that actually happened in real life, someone at a company I once worked for ran up a $30,000 bill for phone sex calls on their extension. Presumably they shouldn't have been sacked for that because the company didn't block calls to those numbers, so how could they have known they shouldn't call them?

Someone who buys one or two of an item at a low price may well have made a legitimate mistake. Someone who bought hundreds or thousands of them when they could only use a few themselves clearly knew there was a problem and was clearly exploiting it.

Leaving a door unlocked is not an indication to take whats inside. That is taking things out of context. The company never said it was allowed for that person to make phone sex calls. Therefore that guy can be punished because he was not given permission. Where something being put into a game is an obvious allocation of permission because it can be assumed that someone did indeed put it there with consent even if the numbers for the prices were wrong therefore making the programmer at fault not the guy buying the items cheaply.

[Lagger]

@OP:

I don't think this forum is the right place to vent your frustration. Perhaps you should tweet ArenaNet or post on reddit, seems the complaints seem to converge there (and get promptly replied to in all their glorious ridiculousness).

[The_Reginald]

Troll post is fail.

Your thread contribution is fail.

[Edward M. Grant]

After extreme community protest, they went to #1.

Where was there 'extreme community protest'?

[The_Reginald]

@OP:

I don't think this forum is the right place to vent your frustration. Perhaps you should tweet ArenaNet or post on reddit, seems the complaints seem to converge there (and get promptly replied to in all their glorious ridiculousness).Well I wasn't everyone started replying to me about how they disagree with my original statement. I am just replying to them.

[Sir Gregoire]

Troll post is fail.
Your post is trolling. The OP is a serious topic and if you have nothing but arrogance to contribute, I suggest you leave.

[thezeronumber]

It's like talking to brick walls.

"I see your opinion but my opinion is better so i will refuse to believe anything else".

I'm getting really tired of all these whiners thinking they know absolutely everything. What is the point of going on a forum to discuss a matter when you are so close-minded and think the sun shines out of your rectum? I'm sorry but come on, the people joining this community just to complain really need a good kick up the backside. Just drop the freakin' subject: Nothing will change and it happened for the right reasons. Jesus Christ.

[Edward M. Grant]

Leaving a door unlocked is not an indication to take whats inside. That is taking things out of context.

It's exactly the equivalent of what you're claiming. If you leave your door open, how is Joe Burglar supposed to know that you don't want him to clear out all that junk you've left in your house? There's no sign to say he shouldn't, so it must be OK.

[Centaur]

Its not like people hacked the freaking programmers put that price in the game. Its like the government puts up a sign on the highway saying the speed limit is 150 miles an hour and they start arresting people for reckless driving even though that sign was put there by the government.

No, it's like the government puts up a sign on the highway saying the speed limit is 15000 miles an hour. The difference was that obvious that it should be immediately clear that someone made a mistake. If people still abuse that mistake to profit from it, then that's exactly what defines an exploit. On top of that, they didn't even punish people for using it once or twice... they punished people for intentionally farming it repeatedly. They sent out a very clear signal that abusing such mistakes would not be tolerated.
And even then, they gave those people the chance to get their account back, if they promised to delete all the stuff they gained with the exploit. Only those people who refused to delete the items they gained that way, were perma-banned.

[Ruse]

Where something being put into a game is an obvious allocation of permission because it can be assumed that someone did indeed put it there with consent even if the numbers for the prices were wrong therefore making the programmer at fault not the guy buying the items cheaply.

I could buy this explanation if there weren't other, correctly-priced items on the vendor, with the one super cheap one sticking out like a sore thumb.

It comes down to, "Did I know I was taking advantage of something I shouldn't?" In this case, the obvious answer is yes.

[The_Reginald]

It's exactly the equivalent of what you're claiming. If you leave your door open, how is Joe Burglar supposed to know that you don't want him to clear out all that junk you've left in your house? There's no sign to say he shouldn't, so it must be OK.
Because the law says so... Just because arenanet says don't exploit is not a clear enough statement. Theres really no way to REALLY tell whats an exploit and whats not.

[Lagger]

Well I wasn't everyone started replying to me about how they disagree with my original statement. I am just replying to them.

I was replying to your original post, not to your defending your point of view. In my book, you started venting right there and haven't stopped until this page of the thread. Nothing you post here will get anyone to agree with your original argument, ArenaNet is not likely to read this forum or this thread so you won't have any official reply to your question. What's your point if not to vent your frustration?

[thezeronumber]

Theres really no way to REALLY tell whats an exploit and whats not.

Item A - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item B - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item C - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item D - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item E - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item F - Sold at 21 Karma
Item G - Sold at 21,000 Karma

Oh look, item F is clearly marked at a wrong price, i am going to buy hundreds of these and exploit the system to gain a fudge-ton of gold.

That was easy wasn't it?

[The_Reginald]

It's like talking to brick walls.

"I see your opinion but my opinion is better so i will refuse to believe anything else".

I'm getting really tired of all these whiners thinking they know absolutely everything. What is the point of going on a forum to discuss a matter when you are so close-minded and think the sun shines out of your rectum? I'm sorry but come on, the people joining this community just to complain really need a good kick up the backside. Just drop the freakin' subject: Nothing will change and it happened for the right reasons. Jesus Christ.

When someone legitimately refutes my statements I will change my opinion. God you can spare me.

[Centaur]

People need to start accepting responsibility for their own actions, instead of trying to always make things someone else's fault.

This! If it's that obvious that it's a bug, then people should be smart enough to report that bug and stay away from it until it's fixed. Intentionally abusing that bug for personal gain, is, and always will be, wrong... and yes, that's absolutely your own responsibility, thus you should be willing to accept the punishment for it.

[thezeronumber]

When someone legitimately refutes my statements I will change my opinion. God you can spare me.

Everyone has, you're just so stubborn that you cannot see it (to be quite frank).

[The_Reginald]

Item A - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item B - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item C - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item D - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item E - Sold at 21,000 Karma
Item F - Sold at 21 Karma
Item G - Sold at 21,000 Karma

Oh look, item F is clearly marked at a wrong price, i am going to buy hundreds of these and exploit the system to gain a fudge-ton of gold.

That was easy wasn't it?
Well obviously some situations will be more clear cut than others

[Sir Gregoire]

It's like talking to brick walls.

"I see your opinion but my opinion is better so i will refuse to believe anything else".

I'm getting really tired of all these whiners thinking they know absolutely everything. What is the point of going on a forum to discuss a matter when you are so close-minded and think the sun shines out of your rectum? I'm sorry but come on, the people joining this community just to complain really need a good kick up the backside. Just drop the freakin' subject: Nothing will change and it happened for the right reasons. Jesus Christ.

I hope your boast of superiority to other members boosts your confidence in real life because I have pity for you and your incredibly shallow and non-contributory posts. What else is a site titled "guildwars2forum.com" for? It's to hear what the community has to say about the game itself. Telling people to
I'm sorry but come on, the people joining this community just to complain really need a good kick up the backside. Just drop the freakin' subject: Nothing will change and it happened for the right reasons. sounds like demagoguery to me. I'd watch what you type before you actually post to be taken seriously by other members.

[Naolin]

Are we forgetting that Anet is removing the perma bans? This whole argument is based of something that Anet themselves has decided to back out on. I think Suspensions fit fine and serve as a warning for what they expect going forward.

[The_Reginald]

Everyone has, you're just so stubborn that you cannot see it (to be quite frank).

Feel free to quote them

[thezeronumber]

Well obviously some situations will be more clear cut than others

This is exactly what happened.

Understanding it now?

[Centaur]

Well obviously some situations will be more clear cut than others

Then you admit that this particular case was obvious and the bannings were justified? Because thezeronumber just explained exactly what the situation was that those people got banned for... the item they could purchase was 1,000 times cheaper than equivalent items throughout the game! Even the crafting components that you could salvage from the item were more expensive than the item's price at the merchant.

[The_Reginald]

This is exactly what happened.

Understanding it now?

I understand THEY put something in the game that could potentially destroy the economy and decided to ban people for using it.

[Sir Gregoire]

Are we forgetting that Anet is removing the perma bans? This whole argument is based of something that Anet themselves has decided to back out on. I think Suspensions fit fine and serve as a warning for what they expect going forward.

The suspensions themselves are a violation on the players' rights. They should not be punished for simply finding ways to acquire currency in a new game. Like I said in my first post. If it is a "bug" then it should be patched by Arena Net and be done with. Not punish the players for using the bug to their benefit when it is Arena Net's fault in the first place.

[The_Reginald]

Then you admit that this particular case was obvious and the bannings were justified? Because thezeronumber just explained exactly what the situation was that those people got banned for... the item they could purchase was 1,000 times cheaper than equivalent items throughout the game!

Well in a case this obvious I suppose that both the players and the gw team should be held responsible. Its just my point is it should be the companies responsibility to keep things like this from happening in the first place is all.
EDIT: I mean look even if the player is being an unchivalrous douche bag and exploiting a bug the fact of the matter is he is not hacking or cheating. He is legitimately playing the game. The gw team messed up and should fix it. Does exploiting the bug make that player a bad person? Sure. But they are just playing the game the way it was made when it really comes down to it and I don't think that is a punishable offense.

[Ruse]

Edit: Never mind, it seems I was unjustly harsh.

[Centaur]

The suspensions themselves are a violation on the players' rights. They should not be punished for simply finding ways to acquire currency in a new game. Like I said in my first post. If it is a "bug" then it should be patched by Arena Net and be done with. Not punish the players for using the bug to their benefit when it is Arena Net's fault in the first place.

What you're saying is, if a hacker breaks into a bank and steals all the money off everyone's bank accounts to enrich himself, then you shouldn't blame the hacker, but the bank, because obviously there was a bug in their security system? As Ruse said before, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions, and not always blaming someone else when they clearly know that what they are doing is wrong and they are abusing the system.

[Edward M. Grant]

Because the law says so... Just because arenanet says don't exploit is not a clear enough statement.

There's no law against taking old junk that you want to get rid of. How is Joe Burglar supposed to know that stuff in your house isn't old junk you want to get rid off? There's no sign saying it isn't.

If you leave your door open, there's no way to REALLY tell what stuff you want Joe Burglar to take and what stuff you don't.

[The_Reginald]

What you're saying is, if a hacker breaks into a bank and steals all the money off everyone's bank accounts to enrich himself, then you shouldn't blame the hacker, but the bank, because obviously there was a bug in their security system? As Ruse said before, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions, and not always blaming someone else when they clearly know that what they are doing is abusing the system.

The bank and the hacker are at fault. According to a banks agreement they must imply or actually state that your money will be safe from them correct? If the bank loses your money whether its stolen or misplaced it is their responsibility to return your money. The hacker should have to reimburse the bank where the bank should reimburse the bank member.

[Lagger]

I'll try to contribute something useful here... bear with me:

There is a fine line between "creative use of game mechanics" and "exploit". I've wondered for 7 years where that distinction really was. One instance was of particular interest to me. Imagine a boss that could be blocked by a simple fence. We could shoot over it, but he couldn't find a path to us and remained in his position not defending himself.

I refused to use that strategy and made my guild go through all the trouble of the rather complex "correct" strategy. We could've done the boss A LOT simpler if we simply had done what everyone else did, bug the boss out and loot him 2 mins later.

Why didn't I do it? Because it was clearly not intentional. You have to use common sense. "Everyone else is doing it" is not part of common sense, that's just a cheap excuse. I realise most people have common sense and they know for a fact how things ought to be. But they refuse to admit it, because it robs them of a golden opportunity to profit. They are like Ferengi that way. Ignore the blatant obvious if it doesn't suit your purpose. But that doesn't make it right. Hence, I figured if a simple fence stops a boss from doing ANYTHING while we are not limited in our pummeling him, clearly that was not the intention of the boss design.

Simple as that. Blizzard has received tickets about it, it was posted on official forums etc. There was no fix. Weeks turned into months and after half a year I said "**** it, if they don't fix it, it's game..." and that is were I decided to use that exploit.

Why am I telling you this? Because that is one case where I agree that yes, it is the developers fault and his damn problem. If a known bug is not fixed for MONTHS, I'll exploit the hell out of it. They had enough time to fix it. However, common sense tells me it is an exploit and I would be lying to you if I told you that I didn't feel it was one of the worst exploits that I have seen.

This translates into our situation as well. There was an obvious discrepancy between item prices and no one honest man will dispute that it is highly suspicious and probably a mistake. The right thing to do would have been to notify ArenaNet of it, buy one item for yourself, you know just to be sure you don't miss out on the opportunity, and then leave it at that. Give the developer a chance to fix a bug. Not abuse it the minute you get wind of it and later say "Gee, you had about 10 mins after it was posted on reddit, why didn't you fix it in time? It's your fault!"

What most of the banned (and dare I say you) did, however, was slightly different. You saw an opportunity, greed kicked in and waved the higher brain functions goodbye as they left the building and you guys WENT FOR IT. Just like in the good old american gold rush. Don't even try to deny it. You just saw the opportunity and grabbed it, like the good Ferengi that you are. And who cares about consequences, in WoW or similar games you were never punished for it, why should it happen here now.

And that's the kicker. ArenaNet is coming down hard on anyone violating the nature of the game and that surprised the **** out of you guys. And you feel that the developer has some sort of sick obligation to go easy on you because once you shell out some bucks for a game you think you bloody own the company.

So, how about you stop complaining or making silly threads about this and other bans and accept that yes, ArenaNet bloody owns your butt as long as you're on their turf, in their game, playing on their servers. Obey the house rules and nothing will happen to you. Disobey them and you will get kicked out. And no entrance fee ever kept you in a club or stadium for misbehaving, so don't even try to use that argument.

[Sir Gregoire]

What you're saying is, if a hacker breaks into a bank and steals all the money off everyone's bank accounts to enrich himself, then you shouldn't blame the hacker, but the bank, because obviously there was a bug in their security system? As Ruse said before, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions, and not always blaming someone else when they clearly know that what they are doing is abusing the system.

Hacking is something completely different than simply playing normally by buying and selling items through a vendor with unbalanced prices. The player who is hacking is exploiting the actual game engine and cheating that way. That of course is a violation of the game and the term "exploit."

[Jim Hunter]

The bank and the hacker are at fault. According to a banks agreement they must imply or actually state that your money will be safe from them correct? If the bank loses your money whether its stolen or misplaced it is their responsibility to return your money. The hacker should have to reimburse the bank where the bank should reimburse the bank member.

Just like it's A-Nets responsibility to preserve the integrity of the game for the people that want to play properly. All they were doing was taking out the trash.

[Centaur]

The bank and the hacker are at fault. According to a banks agreement they must imply or actually state that your money will be safe from them correct? If the bank loses your money whether its stolen or misplaced it is their responsibility to return your money. The hacker should have to reimburse the bank where the bank should reimburse the bank member.

So you don't think that someone who steals money from a bank deserves to be punished for that crime? Just returning the money is way too simple. And what if the hacker doesn't want to reimburse the bank?

Just like in this particular case: ArenaNet will ensure that the bug is fixed, and that other players don't lose anything (or that the market suffers) from the results of that bug. The people who abused the bug, are asked to destroy all their profits. Those who don't, get perma-banned.


Hacking is something completely different than simply playing normally by buying and selling items through a vendor with unbalanced prices. The player who is hacking is exploiting the actual game engine and cheating that way. That of course is a violation of the game and the term "exploit."

Note that I wasn't talking about someone hacking the game engine, I was talking about a hacker who gains access to a bank through a bug in the security system. That is actually very comparable. If he uses a bug in the security system to get access to the bank accounts, you could say the hacker was "simply electronic banking", and he just used a bug in the system to make it easier for him. So although he knows that what he is doing is wrong, he is "just using the system" as provided by the bank to get money.

[MissHunbun]

Just like it's A-Nets responsibility to preserve the integrity of the game for the people that want to play properly. All they were doing was taking out the trash.
This is it exactly.

All the anti-banning people only seem to care that they were banned for an exploit. What about the people who didn't use the exploit and were taken advantage of by people who bought dozens of cheap weapons?

I want to play the game fairly, by the rules, so everyone has an equal and fair chance.

I don't want to play with people who are going to exploit bugs. I want them banned. If you disagree, I feel it's not much of a reach to say, you are probably someone who would exploit a bug for personal gain.

[The_Reginald]

There's no law against taking old junk that you want to get rid of. How is Joe Burglar supposed to know that stuff in your house isn't old junk you want to get rid off? There's no sign saying it isn't.

If you leave your door open, there's no way to REALLY tell what stuff you want Joe Burglar to take and what stuff you don't.

The California Penal Code states: Burglary 1. Entry of; (need not be forced) 2. building or place listed in statute; 3. With intent to commit grand or pety theft or any felony.

[Edward M. Grant]

The California Penal Code states: Burglary 1. Entry of; (need not be forced) 2. building or place listed in statute; 3. With intent to commit grand or pety theft or any felony.

But they're not committing theft. They're cleaning your house. You should be pleased.

And if it does turn out that you didn't want them to take your stuff, then you can just ask for it back and it will all be OK. So what's the problem?

Your argument comes down to 'but there was no sign, how could I tell I was doing something wrong?' If you leave your door open and don't put up a sign saying 'don't take my stuff', how can Joe Burglar know what he's doing is wrong?

I honestly don't see how anyone can oppose banning people for obviously exploiting the game, unless they were one of the people banned or they expect to be banned for exploiting the game in the future. Why do you want to keep exploiters in the game?

[The_Reginald]

So you don't think that someone who steals money from a bank deserves to be punished for that crime? Just returning the money is way too simple. And what if the hacker doesn't want to reimburse the bank?

No of course they should be punished.

[Centaur]

No of course they should be punished.

Then apparently we agree... and this situation is no different. People intentionally abused a very obvious bug in the system to enrich themselves and they get punished for that.

[Naolin]

lol, why don't you guys stick to the actual issue at hand, some of these analogies are so bad this thread is now about figuring them out.

[Lagger]

I made a rather long post, but it got spammed off the page too quickly. LOL

[The_Reginald]

But they're not committing theft. They're cleaning your house. You should be pleased.

And if it does turn out that you didn't want them to take your stuff, then you can just ask for it back and it will all be OK. So what's the problem?

Your argument comes down to 'but there was no sign, how could I tell I was doing something wrong?' If you leave your door open and don't put up a sign saying 'don't take my stuff', how can Joe Burglar know what he's doing is wrong?

I honestly don't see how anyone can oppose banning people for obviously exploiting the game, unless they were one of the people banned or they expect to be banned for exploiting the game in the future. Why do you want to keep exploiters in the game?
There's a difference between fishing through someones trash can and taking items from their house. But even so there is a thing called common sense and there are different levels of punishments. The law doesn't state that its fair to just assume someone doesn't want something that is inside their house where they have the right to privacy. There's also trespassing laws. And GW2 is a GAME its not real life so its not like people need to assume things so literally like they normally would in real life for christ sake.

[auhfel]

I have no problems with anyone intentionally exploiting a bug getting an instant perma-ban. Imo Anet is being far too lenient on the issue. I'd much rather see temp bans for language (OK, actually, I'd rather not see bans for that at all considering there's a profanity filter) than for exploits.

On an aside, In my example the user would not be banned for profanity, but rather for repeated verbal abuse.

Like the difference between "You're a *** maggot" and "That boss mob was a total *** maggot!" Replace *** maggot with profanity. The first is not ok, the second is.

- - - Updated - - -


That depends entirely on the exploit. In the Everquest case people had sold most of those items to other players, many of whom had sold them on to other players and there was no way to reverse all those transactions without rolling everyone back.

In this instance however, they would just do what they are doing now -- putting it on the player to revert the discrepancies with the threat of a permaban. Luckily in Anet's case, users were not even able to use the TP or for a lot of the time mail, to get very far.

[iDwarf]

No of course they should be punished.
So why should someone who buys hundreds of one item that had an incorrect price not be punished? They saw it was a bug and decided to abuse it as much as they could to make a profit.

[auhfel]

Where was there 'extreme community protest'?

On various internet sites and forums. A good one was Reddit.

[Edward M. Grant]

But even so there is a thing called common sense and there are different levels of punishments.

You finally got it. There's this thing called 'common sense' which tells people that when something is being offered for a thousandth as much as similar items, the price is wrong.

And that is how you tell whether or not you're exploiting the game.

[auhfel]

Hacking is something completely different than simply playing normally by buying and selling items through a vendor with unbalanced prices. The player who is hacking is exploiting the actual game engine and cheating that way. That of course is a violation of the game and the term "exploit."

I'd just like to point out that exploiting is "taking full advantage of something", not necessarily taking full advantage of a bad/unintentional thing.

[Lagger]

And GW2 is a GAME its not real life so its not like people need to assume things so literally like they normally would in real life for christ sake.

Ironically, that statement seems only to be true as long as the rights of the gamers aren't concerned. Basically, the attitude I see from the people defending the exploiters are "This is just a game, so we can cheat and exploit as much as we want, because it's just for FUN" and they're ignoring the fact that they're in fact ruining the fun for everyone else. There's a word for that: Selfish.

[Edward M. Grant]

On various internet sites and forums. A good one was Reddit.

A few dozen posters who may not even play the game complaining on Reddit does not count as 'extreme community protest' in a game which has 400,000 players logged on at the same time.

I haven't seen any 'community protest' anywhere, let alone 'extreme'.

[The_Reginald]

I'll try to contribute something useful here... bear with me:

There is a fine line between "creative use of game mechanics" and "exploit". I've wondered for 7 years where that distinction really was. One instance was of particular interest to me. Imagine a boss that could be blocked by a simple fence. We could shoot over it, but he couldn't find a path to us and remained in his position not defending himself.

I refused to use that strategy and made my guild go through all the trouble of the rather complex "correct" strategy. We could've done the boss A LOT simpler if we simply had done what everyone else did, bug the boss out and loot him 2 mins later.

Why didn't I do it? Because it was clearly not intentional. You have to use common sense. "Everyone else is doing it" is not part of common sense, that's just a cheap excuse. I realise most people have common sense and they know for a fact how things ought to be. But they refuse to admit it, because it robs them of a golden opportunity to profit. They are like Ferengi that way. Ignore the blatant obvious if it doesn't suit your purpose. But that doesn't make it right. Hence, I figured if a simple fence stops a boss from doing ANYTHING while we are not limited in our pummeling him, clearly that was not the intention of the boss design.

Simple as that. Blizzard has received tickets about it, it was posted on official forums etc. There was no fix. Weeks turned into months and after half a year I said "**** it, if they don't fix it, it's game..." and that is were I decided to use that exploit.

Why am I telling you this? Because that is one case where I agree that yes, it is the developers fault and his damn problem. If a known bug is not fixed for MONTHS, I'll exploit the hell out of it. They had enough time to fix it. However, common sense tells me it is an exploit and I would be lying to you if I told you that I didn't feel it was one of the worst exploits that I have seen.

This translates into our situation as well. There was an obvious discrepancy between item prices and no one honest man will dispute that it is highly suspicious and probably a mistake. The right thing to do would have been to notify ArenaNet of it, buy one item for yourself, you know just to be sure you don't miss out on the opportunity, and then leave it at that. Give the developer a chance to fix a bug. Not abuse it the minute you get wind of it and later say "Gee, you had about 10 mins after it was posted on reddit, why didn't you fix it in time? It's your fault!"

What most of the banned (and dare I say you) did, however, was slightly different. You saw an opportunity, greed kicked in and waved the higher brain functions goodbye as they left the building and you guys WENT FOR IT. Just like in the good old american gold rush. Don't even try to deny it. You just saw the opportunity and grabbed it, like the good Ferengi that you are. And who cares about consequences, in WoW or similar games you were never punished for it, why should it happen here now.

And that's the kicker. ArenaNet is coming down hard on anyone violating the nature of the game and that surprised the **** out of you guys. And you feel that the developer has some sort of sick obligation to go easy on you because once you shell out some bucks for a game you think you bloody own the company.

So, how about you stop complaining or making silly threads about this and other bans and accept that yes, ArenaNet bloody owns your butt as long as you're on their turf, in their game, playing on their servers. Obey the house rules and nothing will happen to you. Disobey them and you will get kicked out. And no entrance fee ever kept you in a club or stadium for misbehaving, so don't even try to use that argument.Like I said before I WAS NOT BANNED I never even saw or used that bug/exploit. The only reason I made this whole flippin thread was to make sure I was not going to violate the rules with the other thing I wanted to do. So if anything you should all be god damn proud of me for taking the time to actually ask if something is allowed. GOD DAMN

[iDwarf]

I'd just like to point out that exploiting is "taking full advantage of something", not necessarily taking full advantage of a bad/unintentional thing.
But it's still exploiting even if it is a bad thing. You can't unintentionally buy hundreds of the same item without noticing they're being sold for one-thousandth of the price they should be sold at.

[Tolfor]

This is a clear moral issue. If someone can't understand why this this wrong, we don't need them as part of this community. The people that bought SEVERAL of these weapons CLEARLY knew it was wrong and were hoarding them because they KNEW it would be fixed eventually.

[auhfel]

A few dozen posters who may not even play the game complaining on Reddit does not count as 'extreme community protest' in a game which has 400,000 players logged on at the same time.

I haven't seen any 'community protest' anywhere, let alone 'extreme'.

On this forum there was even a lot of talk about it, and different prominent streamers had talks about it with their audiences. If you think that Arenanet had all of a sudden decided to be nice and let these people get their accounts back, and you don't think there was a reason for their doing so, well, I can't help you see it more clearly than that.

It's obvious to me that they felt they had wronged players and were allowing things to be amended.

[The_Reginald]

Ironically, that statement seems only to be true as long as the rights of the gamers aren't concerned. Basically, the attitude I see from the people defending the exploiters are "This is just a game, so we can cheat and exploit as much as we want, because it's just for FUN" and they're ignoring the fact that they're in fact ruining the fun for everyone else. There's a word for that: Selfish.
My point was you must forgive people for not realizing something is such a big deal because it is a game and people may not be thinking straight

[Lagger]

Like I said before I WAS NOT BANNED I never even saw or used that bug/exploit. The only reason I made this whole flippin thread was to make sure I was not going to violate the rules with the other thing I wanted to do. So if anything you should all be god damn proud of me for taking the time to actually ask if something is allowed. GOD DAMN

I didn't specifically address you. I spoke more to the actual banned people in the later part of the post. Sorry for not clarifying that. :)

However, your first post - if it was genuine - speaks volumes of your mindset if someone cares to read between the lines.

[auhfel]

But it's still exploiting even if it is a bad thing. You can't unintentionally buy hundreds of the same item without noticing they're being sold for one-thousandth of the price they should be sold at.I'm simply trying to point out that the term exploit itself is not inherently bad. I dislike when words' definitions become mutilated. For instance, I am currently exploiting the fact that Warriors get incredibly high critical hit chances at low levels (starting at lvl 20 they can have over 100% chance, which eventually drops off a bit). I am doing nothing wrong, but I am exploiting.

[The_Reginald]

So why should someone who buys hundreds of one item that had an incorrect price not be punished? They saw it was a bug and decided to abuse it as much as they could to make a profit.

Well idk maybe they should be

[Peaveywolf]

One is a bug, the other is lack of knowledge of what they could get for the item. You exploit a person, they may learn a lesson, you exploit a bug you are cheating.

[Lagger]

My point was you must forgive people for not realizing something is such a big deal because it is a game and people may not be thinking straight

It is a big deal. More for some than for others, but everything we do is important to us, otherwise none of us would put hours into a game like this or a thread like this as some of you apparently have already. :)

And I think it would be a good move if people started to put more effort into their thoughts on the internet and start taking things a bit more seriously. It would help remove the stigma from being online. ;)

- - - Updated - - -


I'm simply trying to point out that the term exploit itself is not inherently bad. I dislike when words' definitions become mutilated. For instance, I am currently exploiting the fact that Warriors get incredibly high critical hit chances at low levels (starting at lvl 20 they can have over 100% chance, which eventually drops off a bit). I am doing nothing wrong, but I am exploiting.

I agree with you, but don't you think it's a bit beside the point? They're talking about one specific exploit here and typing "abusing an unintentional exploit" just to clarify is a bit cumbersome, don't you agree? :)

[iDwarf]

Well idk maybe they should be
11 pages later and it looks like we're finally on the same page.

[The_Reginald]

11 pages later and it looks like we're finally on the same page.
Guess again lol

So why should someone who buys hundreds of one item that had an incorrect price not be punished? They saw it was a bug and decided to abuse it as much as they could to make a profit.

Well actually because a bank hacker actually hacked they broke into the bank system where as these exploiters used the system itself. Its like what another poster said its a moral issue more than anything else.

[auhfel]

I agree with you, but don't you think it's a bit beside the point? They're talking about one specific exploit here and typing "abusing an unintentional exploit" just to clarify is a bit cumbersome, don't you agree? :)

Allowing words to retain their correct meanings is never cumbersome. All shall be enlightened!

[The_Reginald]

Alright look from a moral standpoint, alright yes ban the exploiters and hang them in the streets like the scum they are. But from an actual court room based legal issue they can't be blamed.

[Lagger]

Well actually because a bank hacker actually hacked they broke into the bank system where as these exploiters used the system itself. Its like what another poster said its a moral issue more than anything else.

A bank hacker uses the system, too. That is the point of hacking as opposed to simply breaking in.

[The_Reginald]

A bank hacker uses the system, too. That is the point of hacking as opposed to simply breaking in.
Well for the sake of argument change hacker to robber with a gun

[Lagger]

Alright look from a moral standpoint, alright yes ban the exploiters and hang them in the streets like the scum they are. But from an actual court room based legal issue they can't be blamed.

Yes, they can. I've witnessed an actual court trial where someone bought a stolen fax machine. The judge actually asked him "So you went to this flea market and saw a brand new fax machine for 20 bucks... and you never questioned that? Seriously?" and that was the end of the story. The fax machine was returned to the lawful owner and that's it.

Btw, in german law there is something called "good faith" in a deal. If you have it, you're protected. If you're not in good faith, you lose the stuff you bought, because you should've known better. This is exactly the case you guys are talking about and in no german court would this be ruled differently than ArenaNet has. The actual punishment may be different but the question of whether or not this was right or wrong is pretty clear cut to me.

[ProphetSword]

For all the arguing on both sides, it comes down to just this:

Arenanet owns the game. You agreed to Terms of Service or a EULA before you started that is a legal and binding contract. When you breach that contract, they can choose to ban you. End of story.

You may not like it. You may think it's unfair. But there is nothing you can do about it. That's how the system works. You break the rules, you suffer the consequences.

Don't like the consequences? Don't break the rules.

You can continue to whine about it until you're blue in the face, but that's the stark reality of it.

[Lagger]

Well for the sake of argument change hacker to robber with a gun

Did you make that analogy up? I don't think you can simply change the analogy if you didn't bring it up. Otherwise I will raise your robber with a door that opens to gunshots and we're in wackoland. ;)

[The_Reginald]

Yes, they can. I've witnessed an actual court trial where someone bought a stolen fax machine. The judge actually asked him "So you went to this flea market and saw a brand new fax machine for 20 bucks... and you never questioned that? Seriously?" and that was the end of the story. The fax machine was returned to the lawful owner and that's it.

Btw, in german law there is something called "good faith" in a deal. If you have it, you're protected. If you're not in good faith, you lose the stuff you bought, because you should've known better. This is exactly the case you guys are talking about and in no german court would this be ruled differently than ArenaNet has. The actual punishment may be different but the question of whether or not this was right or wrong is pretty clear cut to me.
The key word here is stolen...

[Ruse]

Alright look from a moral standpoint, alright yes ban the exploiters and hang them in the streets like the scum they are. But from an actual court room based legal issue they can't be blamed.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, then. And from a "court room based" issue, all the people who were banned signed a TOS, agreeing not to abuse bugs for personal gain. So yes, Anet had every right to ban those people permanently.

[The_Reginald]

Did you make that analogy up? I don't think you can simply change the analogy if you didn't bring it up. Otherwise I will raise your robber with a door that opens to gunshots and we're in wackoland. ;)

Alright fine lol. Hacking and using the system are quite obviously two differnt things... I mean come on honestly buying an under priced item and hacking into a system are two TOTALLY different things.

[auhfel]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, then. And from a "court room based" issue, all the people who were banned signed a TOS, agreeing not to abuse bugs for personal gain. So yes, Anet had every right to ban those people permanently.

Even ToS are debatable in court. Btw.

[Jim Hunter]

Alright look from a moral standpoint, alright yes ban the exploiters and hang them in the streets like the scum they are. But from an actual court room based legal issue they can't be blamed.

It's Tyria, not the U.S. Everyone that bought the game agreed to the terms and conditions whether they read them or not.

The people that bought thousands of copies to salvage or sell knew what they were doing. The people that bought 1 copy for themselves ” might” not have and that's why they weren't banned.

Edit: I was ninjad by about 3 people. I type very slowly on my phone.

[The_Reginald]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, then. And from a "court room based" issue, all the people who were banned signed a TOS, agreeing not to abuse bugs for personal gain. So yes, Anet had every right to ban those people permanently.

Because these people actually paid 60$ for the game its not like gw2 is free to play.

[Sir Gregoire]

Note that I wasn't talking about someone hacking the game engine, I was talking about a hacker who gains access to a bank through a bug in the security system. That is actually very comparable. If he uses a bug in the security system to get access to the bank accounts, you could say the hacker was "simply electronic banking", and he just used a bug in the system to make it easier for him. So although he knows that what he is doing is wrong, he is "just using the system" as provided by the bank to get money.


There is quite a difference between hacking the game's banking system and buying/selling bugged items through a vendor. IF it is even possible to steal money from accounts, it is GW that should be held responsible because they clearly made an error of biblical proportions for letting that be able happen in the first place. The player that hacks the bank accounts should indeed get a serious warning because of course that is volatile gameplay when it affects other characters deposits directly. But when a simple gamer is just buying and selling items to make profit and gets banned because Arena Net claims him to be the problem, not themselves is just a cover up of their own mistakes and is disgusting.

[Lagger]

The key word here is stolen...

The keyword here is not stolen. It's not about the theft of the fax machine. The point I was making was about the guy buying a fax machine on a flea market for a tiny percentage of its obvious value. That guy was not in good faith, because a normal regular person would've smelled something fishy about it. And that's why he had to return it.

The guys buying the items for a tiny percentage of the actual value (as shown by every other item in that list) could not have been in good faith, hence their punishment.

IF they had been in good faith, I'd be totally on your side. Something like a price difference of 10% sounds just about right. But that is not the case here, is it?

[The_Reginald]

The keyword here is not stolen. It's not about the theft of the fax machine. The point I was making was about the guy buying a fax machine on a flea market for a tiny percentage of its obvious value. That guy was not in good faith, because a normal regular person would've smelled something fishy about it. And that's why he had to return it.

The guys buying the items for a tiny percentage of the actual value (as shown by every other item in that list) could not have been in good faith, hence their punishment.

IF they had been in good faith, I'd be totally on your side. Something like a price difference of 10% sounds just about right. But that is not the case here, is it?

If the owner wanted to sell a million dollar item for 20$ he has every legal right to. The only reason the man that bought the flax machine for 20$ had to return it is because it was stolen not because it was under priced for its original value.

[Lagger]

Alright fine lol. Hacking and using the system are quite obviously two differnt things... I mean come on honestly buying an under priced item and hacking into a system are two TOTALLY different things.

Nope. Not if you want to get technical. Hacking in a legal sense is the unintended use of electronic equipment. If you want to get courtside legal technical, it was CLEARLY not intended that one item in that list is that much cheaper. So technically, buying that item in the hundreds is a clear unintended use of the trade system. Your problem is that you don't define what is intended or not, ArenaNet and circumstances define that. And you're wrong on both counts if you say it's intentional that this one item costs a tiny fraction of the other items. Sorry, buddy. :)

[Ruse]

Because these people actually paid 60$ for the game its not like gw2 is free to play.

Yes, and they knowingly and deliberately violated the terms they agreed to when they bought the game. You yourself agreed they should be punished, and they were morally wrong, and we've had the TOS posted here where Anet covered its ass and specifically included this very situation as grounds for a ban.

Seriously, what's the point of this thread?

[Lagger]

If the owner wanted to sell a million dollar item for 20$ he has every legal right to. The only reason the man that bought the flax machine for 20$ had to return it is because it was stolen not because it was under priced for its original value.

Yes, if the owner had wanted to sell it for a fraction, that would've been his right. If ArenaNet had wanted to sell the item for a fraction of its true value, it would've been their own problem.

However, neither the lawful owner or ArenaNet intended for the fax machine to be sold on a fleamarket or the item having a smaller price. And you're forgetting the real keyword here... good faith. And someone buying hundreds of items "before the fix" are not in good faith.

[Peaveywolf]

If the owner wanted to sell a million dollar item for 20$ he has every legal right to. The only reason the man that bought the flax machine for 20$ had to return it is because it was stolen not because it was under priced for its original value.

Flax machine? Has that got something to do with wool ;)

[Sir Gregoire]

If the owner wanted to sell a million dollar item for 20$ he has every legal right to. The only reason the man that bought the flax machine for 20$ had to return it is because it was stolen not because it was under priced for its original value.

Flax machine? Has that got something to do with wool ;)

Finally someone with a free-market style brain unlike these econ-intervening communists.

[Lagger]

IF it is even possible to steal money from accounts, it is GW that should be held responsible because they clearly made an error of biblical proportions for letting that be able happen in the first place. The player that hacks the bank accounts should indeed get a serious warning because of course that is volatile gameplay when it affects other characters deposits directly. But when a simple gamer is just buying and selling items to make profit and gets banned because Arena Net claims him to be the problem, not themselves is just a cover up of their own mistakes and is disgusting.

As you said, the error was of biblical proportions. Meaning it was obvious. Meaning every gamer saw that it was an error. Meaning they bought it anyway. To profit from it. Of course it's ArenaNet's fault for the slip. It's part of their fix to prevent the items generated by this fix from entering the economy. They are actually doing what they can to prevent evil side effects of their mistake.

And no one claimed gamers to be a problem because they buy and sell stuff. Gamers that want to profit on the back of everyone else are a problem, however. And that is what you guys apparently don't see. If I buy hundreds of these items and later the problem gets fixed, I have a leverage to get the actual true value out of them for a tiny tiny percentage of investment compared to everyone else. That is considered an unfair advantage. That is what makes this exploit to bannable. This is no matter of "freedom".

[Izzy]

Flax machine? Has that got something to do with wool ;)

Oh noes my flax machine! How am I supposed to make my woolz?!

[The_Reginald]

Nope. Not if you want to get technical. Hacking in a legal sense is the unintended use of electronic equipment. If you want to get courtside legal technical, it was CLEARLY not intended that one item in that list is that much cheaper. So technically, buying that item in the hundreds is a clear unintended use of the trade system. Your problem is that you don't define what is intended or not, ArenaNet and circumstances define that. And you're wrong on both counts if you say it's intentional that this one item costs a tiny fraction of the other items. Sorry, buddy. :)
Your'e not making the compelling case you think you are :) Hacking involves using unauthorized access to a system in which the hacker was not given permission. Buying items from an in game vendor is 100% allowed. And whether or not the items are correctly priced is debatable. And arenanets definition for exploits again is debatable. Hacking into someone computer is a clear and blatantly obvious breach of privacy where buying mispriced items is not.

[Lagger]

If the owner wanted to sell a million dollar item for 20$ he has every legal right to. The only reason the man that bought the flax machine for 20$ had to return it is because it was stolen not because it was under priced for its original value.

Flax machine? Has that got something to do with wool ;)

Ah, the beauty of the german civil law system. If someone buys something stolen and is truly and honestly in good faith (as deemed by the judge :P), he actually gets to keep the shit. Why? Because it increases trust in trade and provides a stable market where you don't have to constantly worry about returning stuff all the time.

I don't know the anglosaxon legal system, but I'd wager there is something similar built in there, because it's a bloody good rule. :)

[Sir Gregoire]

As you said, the error was of biblical proportions. Meaning it was obvious. Meaning every gamer saw that it was an error. Meaning they bought it anyway. To profit from it. Of course it's ArenaNet's fault for the slip. It's part of their fix to prevent the items generated by this fix from entering the economy. They are actually doing what they can to prevent evil side effects of their mistake.

And no one claimed gamers to be a problem because they buy and sell stuff. Gamers that want to profit on the back of everyone else are a problem, however. And that is what you guys apparently don't see. If I buy hundreds of these items and later the problem gets fixed, I have a leverage to get the actual true value out of them for a tiny tiny percentage of investment compared to everyone else. That is considered an unfair advantage. That is what makes this exploit to bannable. This is no matter of "freedom".

May I kindly direct you to the Reginald's most recent post if I did not make myself clear.

[The_Reginald]

Yes, and they knowingly and deliberately violated the terms they agreed to when they bought the game. You yourself agreed they should be punished, and they were morally wrong, and we've had the TOS posted here where Anet covered its ass and specifically included this very situation as grounds for a ban.

Seriously, what's the point of this thread?
The point of this thread was to find out if buying items cheap and salvaging them and selling the salvaged contents at a higher price is allowed.

[Lagger]

Finally someone with a free-market style brain unlike these econ-intervening communists.

Actually, if you read my reply, you will find that what I'm describing as good faith purchase is actually protecting the economy. Just like ArenaNet is trying to do. I wonder who the narrow minded person is here... ;)

[Peaveywolf]

The point of this thread was to find out if buying items cheap and salvaging them and selling the salvaged contents at a higher price is allowed.

Yes, its free trade, as long as you ain't cheating ;)

[Lagger]

Your'e not making the compelling case you think you are :) Hacking involves using unauthorized access to a system in which the hacker was not given permission. Buying items from an in game vendor is 100% allowed. And whether or not the items are correctly priced is debatable. And arenanets definition for exploits again is debatable. Hacking into someone computer is a clear and blatantly obvious breach of privacy where buying mispriced items is not.

You're ignoring what I'm saying while at the same time repeating what I'm saying... that is so funny. ArenaNet has never authorized you to do whatever the hell pleases you. They authorized you to use their software and game servers as long as you stick to the rules. And I'm pretty sure there is a "spirit of the rule" clause in there somewhere. And I'm fairly sure there is a "it's our game, we're the last instance and can do whatever the hell we want" clause in there. So you're going to lose that argument on both fronts.

Btw, hacking has little to do with privacy. That's just a fancy sounding trendword in the media. Hacking is basically doing unauthorized stuff with electronic equipment. Privacy has nothing to do with it.

[Sir Gregoire]

Actually, if you read my reply, you will find that what I'm describing as good faith purchase is actually protecting the economy. Just like ArenaNet is trying to do. I wonder who the narrow minded person is here... ;)

So you think its just for Arena Net to ban the 3000 players for participating in a bug that was Arena Net's fault in the first place? The purchasing and selling of unbalanced items is not in good faith? People can do whatever they please in a free market. Buy something for whatever price the seller is asking and visa versa. Call me narrow minded if you like but at least I have a decent grasp on modern ethics and the principles of free market economics unlike yourself.

[The_Reginald]

Yes, if the owner had wanted to sell it for a fraction, that would've been his right. If ArenaNet had wanted to sell the item for a fraction of its true value, it would've been their own problem.

However, neither the lawful owner or ArenaNet intended for the fax machine to be sold on a fleamarket or the item having a smaller price. And you're forgetting the real keyword here... good faith. And someone buying hundreds of items "before the fix" are not in good faith.
The fax machine was not put up for sale by the owner someone else did because they stole it and wanted to sell it. That is why that is illegal. If arenanet had accidently put it up for sale for 20$ the buyer would have done nothing wrong but the fact that it was stolen is the reason it was returned to the owner not because of a pricing mistake.

[Tufelhunden]

Why are we discussing past actions? Anet already said it was an exploit. If you disagree I would suggest taking it up with you're local magistrate as nothing you say here changes the current definition as given. I for one hope Anet continues to follow this path for all Future exploits.

[Izzy]

The point of this thread was to find out if buying items cheap and salvaging them and selling the salvaged contents at a higher price is allowed.

Yes, yes it is allowed. ArenaNet has no issues with this.

I once had someone ask me to make a list for them of all the things that annoy me. I was pretty dumb struck because it's just common sense to figure that stuff out. Apparently some people want long, extensive lists of everything not to do in life and that's simply not feasible. Heck, I don't even know everything that annoys me... I just figure it out as I go along. If my cat just died or something and someone was talking smack about him, I would be annoyed. That's just common sense! They can't just wonder why I would be annoyed by that because I didn't hand them a list.

Just decide for yourself if something is an abusive exploit. Is playing the economy okay? Yes. Is playing the economy using a bug okay? No.

Arguing against the bans is pointless. They aren't going to change their policy now, it's way too late for that. Don't like communists? Move out of communist Tyria. ;)

[Sir Gregoire]

Why are we discussing past actions? Anet already said it was an exploit. If you disagree I would suggest taking it up with you're local magistrate as nothing you say here changes the current definition as given. I for one hope Anet continues to follow this path for all Future exploits.

Oh my! All hail the mighty programmers of ArenaNet and their bugged items that we shan't buy! Which items are we supposed to know are ok to buy from now on? When is it safe to participate in the market system? Let me know and I'll continue gaming.

[The_Reginald]

You're ignoring what I'm saying while at the same time repeating what I'm saying... that is so funny. ArenaNet has never authorized you to do whatever the hell pleases you. They authorized you to use their software and game servers as long as you stick to the rules. And I'm pretty sure there is a "spirit of the rule" clause in there somewhere. And I'm fairly sure there is a "it's our game, we're the last instance and can do whatever the hell we want" clause in there. So you're going to lose that argument on both fronts.

Btw, hacking has little to do with privacy. That's just a fancy sounding trendword in the media. Hacking is basically doing unauthorized stuff with electronic equipment. Privacy has nothing to do with it.

Oh please just because its "their" game doesn't give them god like powers they to have to submit to an obvious implication of what their product will do when purchased. And buying things from vendors is one of them.
Hacking in order to steal someones password is a privacy issue...

[Tufelhunden]

Oh my! All hail the mighty programmers of ArenaNet and their bugged items that we shan't buy! Which items are we supposed to know are ok to buy from now on? When is it safe to participate in the market system? Let me know and I'll continue gaming.

Sorry my kids are grown,I cannot help you there. I would suggest you talk with your parents. Sounds as if there are lessons they failed to teach.

[Lagger]

So you think its just for Arena Net to ban the 3000 players for participating in a bug that was Arena Net's fault in the first place? The purchasing and selling of unbalanced items is not in good faith? People can do whatever they please in a free market. Buy something for whatever price the seller is asking and visa versa. Call me narrow minded if you like but at least I have a decent grasp on modern ethics and the principles of free market economics unlike yourself.

Yes, I think it's just for them to ban everyone taking huge advantage of what was described here as "an error of biblical proportions". What you guys fail to understand is that ArenaNet is not even trying to put blame on anyone but themselves. The ban has two purposes: remove the items from the market to avoid inflation and to secure a stable and trusted economy. They even softened the blow and gave everyone of the permabans the opportunity to simply return the acquired items and have the permaban reversed into a three day suspension (that is long over by now). They weren't out for a witch hunt.

However, NOW the game has changed. People know they get into trouble for doing something obvious like that. People will be more honest now and the economy as well as the community will profit from this as a whole.

[Peaveywolf]

Oh my! All hail the mighty programmers of ArenaNet and their bugged items that we shan't buy! Which items are we supposed to know are ok to buy from now on? When is it safe to participate in the market system? Let me know and I'll continue gaming.

Buying one you need is fine, I wouldn't have known what price it was, but if a person buys loads and tries to sell em on, then they obviously knew the price it should have been, or had been informed. So they are exploiting and it goes against the terms we all agreed to to even play this game.

[Jim Hunter]

So you think its just for Arena Net to ban the 3000 players for participating in a bug that was Arena Net's fault in the first place?

Absolutely.

They all agreed to the rules when they started the game. Every new game will have bugs, the right thing to do is report them, not take advantage of them.

[Lagger]

Oh please just because its "their" game doesn't give them god like powers they to have to submit to an obvious implication of what their product will do when purchased. And buying things from vendors is one of them.
Hacking in order to steal someones password is a privacy issue...

It does actually. And you agreed with it. Now deal with the consequences. :)

[Izzy]

Oh please just because its "their" game doesn't give them god like powers they to have to submit to an obvious implication of what their product will do when purchased. And buying things from vendors is one of them.


Actually they do have god-like powers to do whatever they want with their game. They created the ToS, they can edit the ToS. They can ban people without ever telling them why. They can take away all your armor and force you to run around naked if they wanted.

Thankfully they're a nice and forgiving company that wants the best for people. They don't have to be like that.

[Ruse]

Oh my! All hail the mighty programmers of ArenaNet and their bugged items that we shan't buy! Which items are we supposed to know are ok to buy from now on? When is it safe to participate in the market system? Let me know and I'll continue gaming.

The ones that aren't 1,000th the price of others just like them, all on the same vendor.

[Lagger]

Buying one you need is fine

That is exactly the point. As far as I know, ArenaNet didn't even bother to go after people buying just for themselves. They went after guys buying 50 or more... some of them have bought close to 200 of the items. Ridiculous.

[Sir Gregoire]

Absolutely.

They all agreed to the rules when they started the game. Every new game will have bugs, the right thing to do is report them, not take advantage of them.

The people who made the rules also made the stats with every item in the game. If it's not ok to buy the item, then it needs to be patched because if it is indeed bugged. Then the issue is settled. Players should not be punished on behalf of the creators faults.

[Jim Hunter]

Oh my! All hail the mighty programmers of ArenaNet and their bugged items that we shan't buy! Which items are we supposed to know are ok to buy from now on? When is it safe to participate in the market system? Let me know and I'll continue gaming.

Sure, stay out of the game and I'll make sure to contact you when it's safe to play.

[Sir Gregoire]

The ones that aren't 1,000th the price of others just like them, all on the same vendor.

Oh so I shouldn't buy items unless it is acceptable throughout everyone's perspective? The whole concept of free trade is that people can buy and sell items at any price desired. No one is forced into buying, and no one is forced into selling. And people surely shouldn't be punished for either.

[MissHunbun]

The people who made the rules also made the stats with every item in the game. If it's not ok to buy the item, then it needs to be patched because if it is indeed bugged. Then the issue is settled. Players should not be punished on behalf of the creators faults.

The people who bought ONE for personal use were not, because they probably didn't do it with malicious intent. The people who bought DOZENS for the purpose of exploiting the bug WERE because it went directly against the TOS. How can anyone make it more clear to you?

You break the rules you agreed to, you pay the consequences. End of story.

If you find a bug that can be exploited, report it. Stuff happens, it's a game. How can you expect ANet to be forgiving of exploiters (and they were, by reversing the bans) if you can't forgive one tiny error on their part?

[Lagger]

The people who made the rules also made the stats with every item in the game. If it's not ok to buy the item, then it needs to be patched because if it is indeed bugged. Then the issue is settled. Players should not be punished on behalf of the creators faults.

You don't get it. They were not punished on behalf of the creators faults. They were punished because they gained an unfair advantage. Otherwise no cheater would EVER BE BANNED in any game in the history of computer games. You're on the edge of ridiculousness.

[Peaveywolf]

Oh so I shouldn't buy items unless it is acceptable throughout everyone's perspective? The whole concept of free trade is that people can buy and sell items at any price desired. No one is forced into buying, and no one is forced into selling. And people surely shouldn't be punished for either.
You really are missing the point dude

[Ruse]

Oh so I shouldn't buy items unless it is acceptable throughout everyone's perspective? The whole concept of free trade is that people can buy and sell items at any price desired. No one is forced into buying, and no one is forced into selling. And people surely shouldn't be punished for either.

Do you even understand what the exploit was?

[Jim Hunter]

The people who made the rules also made the stats with every item in the game. If it's not ok to buy the item, then it needs to be patched because if it is indeed bugged. Then the issue is settled. Players should not be punished on behalf of the creators faults.

They weren't punished for the bug, they were punished for the way they behaved when they knowingly exploited the bug.

[Peaveywolf]

If you saw something priced wrongly in a shop you couldnt even buy 50 of em. They can just withdraw it from sale for 30 days.

[Lagger]

Oh so I shouldn't buy items unless it is acceptable throughout everyone's perspective? The whole concept of free trade is that people can buy and sell items at any price desired. No one is forced into buying, and no one is forced into selling. And people surely shouldn't be punished for either.

And this is were the analogy with real world economy ends. I'm sorry, I know you hobby economists like to talk as if the game was real, but as long as the developer dictates the item price for NPC sold items, this is not a free market and nothing you say will change that. It is their decision not yours, not the markets. The market pricing begins once you enter the trade post, not when you walk up to a vendor who can't haggle and has no free will to display the prices he wants.

Edit: Oh, btw... Blizzard actually suspended people for cornering the market on the WoW AH. Do not kid yourself, you are free to do whatever you want, until the developer doesn't like what you're doing because it interfers with the way they want the game to work. Never doubt that.

[Sir Gregoire]

And this is were the analogy with real world economy ends. I'm sorry, I know you hobby economists like to talk as if the game was real, but as long as the developer dictates the item price for NPC sold items, this is not a free market and nothing you say will change that. It is their decision not yours, not the markets. The market pricing begins once you enter the trade post, not when you walk up to a vendor who can't haggle and has no free will to display the prices he wants.

And it is responsibility of ArenaNet to act as the vendor. If they sell the item for cheap and take a loss of profit, it's their fault. You seem to never see the point I'm making and I continue to repeat myself.

[Peaveywolf]

Honestly dude .... If u intentionally try to rip off the system, you will be banned, if its a one of purchase, probs not. Do you understand that.

[Lagger]

And it is responsibility of ArenaNet to act as the vendor. If they sell the item for cheap and take a loss of profit, it's their fault. You seem to never see the point I'm making and I continue to repeat myself.

I actually read every post you write. I find them highly amusing. You're the guy that sees a hotdog stand with a sign saying "1 Hotdog for c1" and then proceeds to argue with the poor vendor who wanted to sell hot dogs for a buck a piece, right? ;)

[MissHunbun]

And it is responsibility of ArenaNet to act as the vendor. If they sell the item for cheap and take a loss of profit, it's their fault. You seem to never see the point I'm making and I continue to repeat myself.

They didn't take a 'loss of profit'. But the people who exploited the bug got an unfair advantage in game by breaking the rules, whereas people who knew it was an exploit did not, because they were honest.

Do you not see the morality? if you're going to apply a real world example of free trade then you must also apply a real world example of morality. It's equivalent to stealing, it's breaking the rules, end of story. Don't like it, go play another game where you can exploit and the game creators don't give two craps.

[Peaveywolf]

They didn't take a 'loss of profit'. But the people who exploited the bug got an unfair advantage in game by breaking the rules, whereas people who knew it was an exploit did not, because they were honest.

Do you not see the morality? if you're going to apply a real world example of free trade then you must also apply a real world example of morality. It's equivalent to stealing, it's breaking the rules, end of story. Don't like it, go play another game where you can exploit and the game creators don't give two craps.

Hehe, good one, but some would say morality has nothing to do with business ;) Not me though.

[Lagger]

Hehe, good one, but some would say morality has nothing to do with business ;) Not me though.

Morality is on a decline, as this thread proves.

[MissHunbun]

Hehe, good one, but some would say morality has nothing to do with business ;) Not me though.

You're absolutely right. Although I find that a very sad truth to hear. :(

[Peaveywolf]

Morality is on a decline, as this thread proves.

I agree, you see it in the real world all the time.

[The_Reginald]

It does actually. And you agreed with it. Now deal with the consequences. :)

No it doesn't lol. What consequences for the 3rd time I have not been banned or given any warnings.

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Morality is on a decline, as this thread proves.

The only thing this thread proves is the failure of the worlds education system.

[Peaveywolf]

Well yeah, yours unfortunately, cos it was obvious from the start what an exploit is and what it isn't

[MissHunbun]

The only thing this thread proves is the failure of the worlds education system.

*world's

Guess you're right.

[Lagger]

No it doesn't lol. What consequences for the 3rd time I have not been banned or given any warnings.

- - - Updated - - -



The only thing this thread proves is the failure of the worlds education system.

Yes, it means that they have god like powers on their server. And you did agree with it. And the consequence for you is that you are in this game subject to nothing but the judgement of ArenaNet's staff as long as they stick within the legality of their TOS as far as that is in agreement with your national law. Which I'm pretty sure their lawyers have made sure of. As has common practice in online games. They own your butt, and that is the consequence you'll have to live with. If you're honest, you'll never even realise this. So don't get all riled up on it now.

And don't doubt my or the other people's education. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalala, this isn't true because I don't want it to be" isn't much of an argument, neither is it making your argument any more valid.

Also, you guys are in the vast minority. Believe it or not.

[Jim Hunter]

*world's

Guess you're right.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[The_Reginald]

*world's

Guess you're right.

Wow are you an English major? That is so incredible that you could read what I wrote and actually manage to notice that I made a grammar mistake. My god your so intelligent, honestly I envy you and your vast knowledge of the English language.
EDIT: I'm sorry "your'e"

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, it means that they have god like powers on their server. And you did agree with it. And the consequence for you is that you are in this game subject to nothing but the judgement of ArenaNet's staff as long as they stick within the legality of their TOS as far as that is in agreement with your national law. Which I'm pretty sure their lawyers have made sure of. As has common practice in online games. They own your butt, and that is the consequence you'll have to live with. If you're honest, you'll never even realise this. So don't get all riled up on it now.

And don't doubt my or the other people's education. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "Lalala, this isn't true because I don't want it to be" isn't much of an argument, neither is it making your argument any more valid.

Also, you guys are in the vast minority. Believe it or not.

I don't recall ever doing that

[Peaveywolf]

Wow are you an English major? That is so incredible that you could read what I wrote and actually manage to notice that I made a grammar mistake. My god your so intelligent, honestly I envy you and your vast knowledge of the English language.
EDIT: I'm sorry "your'e"

Lol, you even got it wrong then ;) Please.... stop whilst you're ahead ..... You're btw ;) Short for you are ;)

[Sir Gregoire]

May I give the privilege of referring you all to my first post which summed up the argument.

I do apologize, I can't summon your so-called logic when u say there is a difference between exploiting and obvious error. I fail to see the difference between the two because of the fact that Arena Net banned 3000 players (Without warning) because of a mistake on Arena Net's part is just a violation of players' rights. Do you dare say that its the player's fault for acquiring currency on behalf of the programmers fault? IF the prices of certain items were out of balance, then Arena Net should patch the bug and be done with it but players should not be held accountable for their actions in game while the bug was present and nothing should be revoked from the player's possessions during the time of the "bug." By Arena Net showing this aggressive power display with their so called "right" to ban people because of their mistakes makes me wish I had not contributed to a sale of this communist company.

The players that did "exploit" the bug were innovators in a new world and should NOT be punished for finding ways to make currency. If anything they brought more realism to it and found the niches and gaps in this new and developing GW economy. Arena Net is punishing the players for just playing the game. Like I said, if it IS a bug, then it needs to be patched by Arena Net and the players should not be held accountable for taking advantage of the bug.

I can't help but see the parallels in various other circumstances that have yet to come....
Ex. 1: A player buys a powerful sword for cheap and it is unbalanced in terms of price to power ratio. He gets banned for using it. Because he is "exploiting" a bug that he may not even know is a bug.

Ex. 2: Players refuse to purchase and sell things via vendors or Black Lion Trading Company because they are afraid of getting banned for "unfair" pricing.

My list could go on and on but since I am pressed for time I must end here. I cannot express how much I am outraged by Arena Net for doing this. It takes away the freedom that a MMO is supposed to have with a free-market system that it claims to have.

I rest my case,
~Level 16 Warrior, Sir Gregoire

[The_Reginald]

Lol, you even got it wrong then ;)

Here's the . you were looking for to end your sentence.

[MissHunbun]

Wow are you an English major? That is so incredible that you could read what I wrote and actually manage to notice that I made a grammar mistake. My god your so intelligent, honestly I envy you and your vast knowledge of the English language.

*you're

And no, I'm not. However I wasn't failed by my parents or the education system, as I'm able to grasp basic grammar. And I didn't "actually manage" to notice it, it stuck out like a sore thumb.

If you're going to judge other people then suck it up when they turn it back on you. Honestly, I'm not trying to be insulting, but reading the things you write, and how you respond to people, it's like talking to a wall. A particularly stubborn wall.

[Lagger]

Wow are you an English major? That is so incredible that you could read what I wrote and actually manage to notice that I made a grammar mistake. My god your so intelligent, honestly I envy you and your vast knowledge of the English language.
EDIT: I'm sorry "your'e"

That's what you get for doubting people's education. Every post on the internet can be picked apart. I've learned 20 years ago to not start correcting other people. ;)

[The_Reginald]

*you're

And no, I'm not. However I wasn't failed by my parents or the education system, as I'm able to grasp basic grammar. And I didn't "actually manage" to notice it, it stuck out like a sore thumb.

If you're going to judge other people then suck it up when they turn it back on you. Honestly, I'm not trying to be insulting, but reading the things you write, and how you respond to people, it's like talking to a wall. A particularly stubborn wall.
If you'll be so kind as to reread my post I already corrected the your'e sweet heart. And AS IF I am the stubborn wall here I would like to see one single post you made that wasn't a snooty little remark trying to make yourself seem smarter than everyone else and actually contributed to the conversation.

[Peaveywolf]

Here's the . you were looking for to end your sentence.

Since when do you put a full stop after a smiley dude...sort it out ;)

[The_Reginald]

That's what you get for doubting people's education. Every post on the internet can be picked apart. I've learned 20 years ago to not start correcting other people. ;)

A typing error and not being aware of the correct grammar are two different things.

[Lagger]

May I give the privilege of referring you all to my first post which summed up the argument.

I'm not sure if I'd call that a privilege. You guys are missing the scope of the issue by so much it's hard to argue with the irrational line of reasoning you're presenting.

By now, I'm ready to ask you for compensation for me reading through this. Why? Because I feel forced to endure it. It makes no sense in the real world to normal people, but why should I care. I want money from you right now. Doesn't need to make much sense, just as you guys fail to see the reason behind ArenaNet's actions. If you guys are not venting because of frustration, are you bored perhaps? :)

The whole topic was a fun exercise in debating, alas, I fear the silliness is going too far for me. My education was doubted ONCE AGAIN on this forum, I can't teach you common bloody sense, I'm going to bed now. Have a good one. ;)

[The_Reginald]

Since when do you put a full stop after a smiley dude...sort it out ;)

Since when do people give a shit about grammar on forums to begin with.

[morgaren]

Oh No, please tell me that I the king of the run on sentence does not have to be in fear of being constantly corrected for my lack of punctuation and incoorect usage of the comma, I would be rather upset if i was constantly corrected while doing something for leisure and fun, I think that would be a major bummer.

[Jim Hunter]

I fail to see the difference between the two because of the fact that Arena Net banned 3000 players (Without warning)

Report hacks and exploits and do not use them yourself.

The system involves two types of administrative action: temporary account suspensions and permanent account terminations. Those who fail to observe the Rules of Conduct usually will have an administrative “mark” placed on their Guild Wars 2 account that results in a temporary account suspension. However, in the case of an extreme breach-such as using a game exploit, attempting to hack the servers, or acquiring a large number of marks and moving into a “frequent violation” status-the account will be permanently closed.

The warning was there in black and white.

Everyone playing the game agreed to these rules.

Your argument is invalid.

[morgaren]

Since when do people give a shit about grammar on forums to begin with.

Only when their logic is in question by superior logic in my experience.

[MissHunbun]

If you'll be so kind as to reread my post I already corrected the your'e sweet heart. And AS IF I am the stubborn wall here I would like to see one single post you made that wasn't a snooty little remark trying to make yourself seem smarter than everyone else and actually contributed to the conversation.

It's not a correction if it's still wrong. And please, don't patronize me.

I'm not snooty, but you're being ignorant and argumentative on purpose. And I don't try to sound smarter than anyone. I am the way I am, and if you don't like it, maybe you shouldn't be interacting with me.

I did contribute a lot to the conversation but your willful ignorance has devolved this conversation into petty insults. It was never really a real discussion in the first place, as I'm sure most people will attest, as you spent most of it using ridiculous arguments to refute points in a way that didn't even make sense. So forgive me if I come across as snooty, it wasn't my intention. I'm just treating you the way you've been treating everyone who disagreed with you this entire 19 pages.

[Jim Hunter]

If you'll be so kind as to reread my post I already corrected the your'e sweet heart. And AS IF I am the stubborn wall here I would like to see one single post you made that wasn't a snooty little remark trying to make yourself seem smarter than everyone else and actually contributed to the conversation.

Did you mean: you're

Google it if you're having a hard time.

[Peaveywolf]

Since when do people give a shit about grammar on forums to begin with.

Hehe When you start going on about peoples education. Lesson learnt I think.

[Sir Gregoire]

Report hacks and exploits and do not use them yourself.

The system involves two types of administrative action: temporary account suspensions and permanent account terminations. Those who fail to observe the Rules of Conduct usually will have an administrative “mark” placed on their Guild Wars 2 account that results in a temporary account suspension. However, in the case of an extreme breach-such as using a game exploit, attempting to hack the servers, or acquiring a large number of marks and moving into a “frequent violation” status-the account will be permanently closed.

The warning was there in black and white.

Everyone playing the game agreed to these rules.

Your argument is invalid.

Please quote the code of conduct that says you may not purchase items that are supposedly incorrectly priced.

[Jim Hunter]

Oh No, please tell me that I the king of the run on sentence does not have to be in fear of being constantly corrected for my lack of punctuation and incoorect usage of the comma, I would be rather upset if i was constantly corrected while doing something for leisure and fun, I think that would be a major bummer.

People don't care about grammar on these forums but making such an obvious mistake when making jokes about a persons lack of education is hard to pass up.

[Peaveywolf]

Please quote the code of conduct that says you may not purchase items that are supposedly incorrectly priced.

Honestly, this tiresome now. You either get it or you don't. The rules are there, simple as.

[MissHunbun]

Please quote the code of conduct that says you may not purchase items that are supposedly incorrectly priced.

They don't need to be specific about the type of exploits. The point is, using a game exploit results in a ban. Don't like it, go spend your 60$ elsewhere and rip off that game community instead. As for me, I'm glad that scummy exploiters get banned, I don't want them in the game with the fun, honest people, who play the game fairly.

[Jim Hunter]

Seriously? Did you miss the first line?

Anyone that was to stupid to realize the items were priced wrong wouldn't be smart enough to know how to exploit it.

[Peaveywolf]

Seriously? Did you miss the first line?

Anyone that was to stupid to realize the items were priced wrong wouldn't be smart enough to know how to exploit it.

Exactly.

[slainte]

They don't need to be specific about the type of exploits. The point is, using a game exploit results in a ban. Don't like it, go spend your 60$ elsewhere and rip off that game community instead. As for me, I'm glad that scummy exploiters get banned, I don't want them in the game with the fun, honest people, who play the game fairly.

I think the clue here is right in the first post. In it the OP states, and I quote, "...it was the programmers fault ffs."

Right here the argument is lost, because it indicates that the OP admits it was a bug. Taking advantage of a bug, particularly in a way that would be harmful to other players of the game, buying thousands of the item and trying to make a financial killing, is the definition of an exploit.

Nobody got banned for outfitting themselves in karma gear cheaply, they got banned for exploiting that mistaken cheap price, which is against the terms of service.

[Vayne]

The different in the marketplace example and what happened is this. In the marketplace it's impossible to list something for less than you can sell it to a merchant for. Which means there's a regulation on how cheap something can be sold. Now, if you saw something on the marketplace cheaper than it could be sold for to the merchant and bought every one you could, knowing that it was cheaper, it's an exploit.

But when you see an NPC vendor selling a peace of armor cheaper than any other armor, significantly cheaper, most intelligent life forms would wonder why. They'd ask the question. And maybe you'd buy one for yourself. But if it's a good enough deal, IE cheap enough to buy dozens, then obviously there's something wrong there, and at very least, you should wait to see rather than jumping in.

Because anyone it's obvious at least to me that if I'm tempted to buy dozens of something because the deal is THAT good that it's probably not intentionally that good. It would make all the other items sold by NPC vendors elsewhere completely irrelevant. Therefore I'd have to at least ask the question.

Those who bought a couple of them did NOT receive bans. According to Anet even if you bought 50, you weren't banned. Those who bought more than 50, well, they were either exploiting the program or they made a really big mistake.

And those people are NOT permabanned. They lost 72 hours of the game for their mistake and can come back and play it if they allow their characters to be rolled back. So what, exactly is the problem here?

Let's say 3 innocent guys lost 72 hours of play to set an example for a few hundred exploiters? Does it suck for them? Sure. Does it send a message to exploiters everywhere, that they can't do this? You bet.

It's a win/win even for those who were banned for 72 hours, even if they don't know it.

[Lagger]

Please quote the code of conduct that says you may not purchase items that are supposedly incorrectly priced.

Oh, because I feel like ending this properly...

User Agreement (this is what you agreed to when installing the game):

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

Excerpts of relevance:



5. CONDUCT

(a) It is Your responsibility to adhere to the Rules of Conduct in effect in connection with Your use of the Service. You acknowledge that NCsoft may make changes to the Rules of Conduct at any time and NCsoft will inform you of any such changes in a reasonable manner.
(b) If You violate the Rules of Conduct, then NCsoft may, in its sole and absolute discretion, terminate Your Account under Section 3(b)



3. DURATION OF AGREEMENT, ACCOUNT TERMINATION, REFUND REQUESTS

[...]

(b) Discretionary Account Termination – [...] Whether or not You wish to terminate an Account, NCsoft may at any time or for any reason, both of which shall be conclusively determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCsoft, modify or delete Your Account as well as any other Account, NCsoft Message Board ID, Character ID, Team, and/or characteristics related to a Character ID. Unless NCsoft terminates due to breach of this agreement by You, You will be entitled to a refund for any unused purchased Gems that cannot be used and/or spent as a result of the termination by sending a refund request to the Notice Contact.

Rules of Conduct (that is the part of the user agreement mentioned in 5. a) and 5. b)

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

Excerpts of relevance:



[...]

Even when not specified, NC Interactive, Inc. (“NCsoft”) and ArenaNet, Inc. (“ArenaNet”) have the sole right and final judgment of how to interpret and apply these rules and guidelines to any specific circumstance and situation, including proper punishment or exception.



17. You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.

[knightblaster]

So I'm sure you are all aware of that 3000 player ban which was incredibly unjust. I mean the players did nothing wrong it was the programmers fault ffs. Anyway I'm wondering if this would be banable. If you buy items on the trading post and then sell them higher is that an exploit? I mean if you bought something that was priced low by a player and than used a salvage kit to get the raw materials and those were priced higher would that be an "exploit"?

Of course not -- that's a market working as intended.

The exploit here was not players who bought a set of gear. Those people were not banned. The people who got themselves banned were buying multiple copies of the gear and then using the mystic forge and so on -- it was an exploit because the players acted like they needed to make hay while the sun was shining (i.e., before the price was fixed -- they were acting like they needed to buy as much as possible before it was fixed, which indicates they knew they were exploiting a bug).

Exploits are always "the developers fault" from the perspective that there is a bug/design issue that is being exploited by players. What makes it an exploit is not the developers mistake, but the actions of the players in response to the mistake. The people who were buying this gear in bulk knew they were exploiting a bug (or sure acted like they did), so they deserve the bans they got.

[Shadowedraven]

Well yes that's a good point but I still don't think its fair to ban the players for doing something the programmers put in even if it was an obvious mistake. IMO bottom line blame the programmer that messed up.

They violated their TOS. Arenanet had every right to permaban them.

[Shadowedraven]

I do apologize, I can't summon your so-called logic when u say there is a difference between exploiting and obvious error. I fail to see the difference between the two because of the fact that Arena Net banned 3000 players (Without warning) because of a mistake on Arena Net's part is just a violation of players' rights. Do you dare say that its the player's fault for acquiring currency on behalf of the programmers fault? IF the prices of certain items were out of balance, then Arena Net should patch the bug and be done with it but players should not be held accountable for their actions in game while the bug was present and nothing should be revoked from the player's possessions during the time of the "bug." By Arena Net showing this aggressive power display with their so called "right" to ban people because of their mistakes makes me wish I had not contributed to a sale of this communist company.

The players that did "exploit" the bug were innovators in a new world and should NOT be punished for finding ways to make currency. If anything they brought more realism to it and found the niches and gaps in this new and developing GW economy. Arena Net is punishing the players for just playing the game. Like I said, if it IS a bug, then it needs to be patched by Arena Net and the players should not be held accountable for taking advantage of the bug.

I can't help but see the parallels in various other circumstances that have yet to come....
Ex. 1: A player buys a powerful sword for cheap and it is unbalanced in terms of price to power ratio. He gets banned for using it. Because he is "exploiting" a bug that he may not even know is a bug.

Ex. 2: Players refuse to purchase and sell things via vendors or Black Lion Trading Company because they are afraid of getting banned for "unfair" pricing.

My list could go on and on but since I am pressed for time I must end here. I cannot express how much I am outraged by Arena Net for doing this. It takes away the freedom that a MMO is supposed to have with a free-market system that it claims to have.

I rest my case,
~Level 16 Warrior, Sir Gregoire

Your logic has a fatal flaw. The TOS is a contract for continued use of an intellectual property owned by Arenanet. In exploiting that bug when they had agreed to the terms of usage of the property known as Guild Wars 2 they breached that contract rendering it null and void. That is the basis for Arenanet's actions and it really doesn't matter if you agree with their actions or not. It WILL hold up in a court of law if it gets taken that far by any of the parties involved.

[Shadowedraven]

So you think its just for Arena Net to ban the 3000 players for participating in a bug that was Arena Net's fault in the first place? The purchasing and selling of unbalanced items is not in good faith? People can do whatever they please in a free market. Buy something for whatever price the seller is asking and visa versa. Call me narrow minded if you like but at least I have a decent grasp on modern ethics and the principles of free market economics unlike yourself.

Modern ethics.. what a nonsensical term. 'there is no black and white it is all shades of gray' Bull pies... There most certainly are things that are very clear cut right or wrong and trying to say it's a 'gray area' doesn't make it so. More over the fact that you accept and are willing to take advantage of said 'gray areas' speaks volumes for your character. Modern ethics is why we had the housing melt-down and Wall Street almost crumbled due to their lack of a clear morale compass.

[Hytekdk]

1. OP is dumb.

2. No, it's not. There's a huge difference (refer back to point 1).

+1

Well put!

[Centaur]

+1

Well put!

You make your first post to compliment someone for his insults? I hope you will keep in mind that we don't tolerate such insults here... see our forum guideline #2 (http://www.guildwars2forum.com/threads/75-Forum-Guidelines)...

[Sir Gregoire]

There is no point in continuing. You guys clearly have your set views on how GW should manipulate player's experiences based on GW's own fault. All I have done is basically repeated my OP over and over again in different contexts.

..And to you lagger, your quotes from the code of conduct had nothing with what I asked to be quoted. I asked where does it specifically say that a player should not buy or sell items that are supposedly unbalanced.

I don't see why I should continue and this does not mean I admit defeat. I just feel it is a waste of time to debate with arrogant suck ups to ArenaNet.
The term "exploits" is just a sugar coated term which really means ArenaNet fucked up. And they are who should be held accountable. Not the players.

Good day.

[Hoern]

Despite the obvious troll attempt in this thread (btw, come on, people bought THOUSANDS of the items, you have to know something is wrong there), no, it's not bannable, it's just playing the trading post. Now, if you, I don't know, knowingly bought thousands of cultural items from a vendor at an extremely cheap price, knowing that the price was messed up, and then proceeded to sell them, then yes, that is a bannable offense ;)

I've played MMOs forever (and a day). And in every MMO there was some edge, some angle, you could play to make some extra cash or farm some extra items. Heck, does no one remember the one-repair bug in UO? The developers actually left it in, stating that if you made it that far it wasn't much of a competition anyways.

Now, sure, you see something cheap and sell it expensive. That may, or may not, be bad game play. But I don't think that banning the sellers was the smartest and most transparent of all possible approaches. Take their money away, nix the sold items, refund the money, and slap a warning/infraction onto the players. Delete those who are obviously just farmers for some overseas money market. But over 1,000 bans over something in-game that wasn't using non-game approaches... not a good start for a company that wants to shed the customer non-centrist image they have had for a long time.

[Lagger]

..And to you lagger, your quotes from the code of conduct had nothing with what I asked to be quoted. I asked where does it specifically say that a player should not buy or sell items that are supposedly unbalanced.

It is there in plain text. Of course you have to make the effort to understand the text. But feel free to continue ignoring reality.

[Vayne]

I've played MMOs forever (and a day). And in every MMO there was some edge, some angle, you could play to make some extra cash or farm some extra items. Heck, does no one remember the one-repair bug in UO? The developers actually left it in, stating that if you made it that far it wasn't much of a competition anyways.

Now, sure, you see something cheap and sell it expensive. That may, or may not, be bad game play. But I don't think that banning the sellers was the smartest and most transparent of all possible approaches. Take their money away, nix the sold items, refund the money, and slap a warning/infraction onto the players. Delete those who are obviously just farmers for some overseas money market. But over 1,000 bans over something in-game that wasn't using non-game approaches... not a good start for a company that wants to shed the customer non-centrist image they have had for a long time.

1000 bans out of over a million players? I'm sure more than 1000 people did this. It's not the people that made 20 or 30 that were being punished. I don't really think this is overkill.

[Kenright]

There is no point in continuing. You guys clearly have your set views on how GW should manipulate player's experiences based on GW's own fault. All I have done is basically repeated my OP over and over again in different contexts.

..And to you lagger, your quotes from the code of conduct had nothing with what I asked to be quoted. I asked where does it specifically say that a player should not buy or sell items that are supposedly unbalanced.

I don't see why I should continue and this does not mean I admit defeat. I just feel it is a waste of time to debate with arrogant suck ups to ArenaNet.
The term "exploits" is just a sugar coated term which really means ArenaNet fucked up. And they are who should be held accountable. Not the players.

Good day.


You do know that they are reverting the perma-bans under the condition that players relieve their ill-gotten gains, right?

And as for what Arena Net decides to do with its game: they are the developers, you purchased a license to use their product (a service, really, not really a physical product). They can remove that license under a very wide variety of circumstances, and one of the circumstances they have chosen are "you take advantage of a game-breaking exploit." Its been reiterated that purchasing a fair quantity of the items in question did not result in a ban, and that Arena Net was fairly lenient to most people who took advantage of it. Then there are the people who made hundreds, possibly thousands of gold in less than a day. These people took advantage of the system. They violated Arena Net's conditions of use. Thus, they can, and should be banned.

If you don't like this, then there is no reason for you to continue using Arena Nets services. Maybe they will give you a refund if you give them a fairly good reason for it.

[Hoern]

1000 bans out of over a million players? I'm sure more than 1000 people did this. It's not the people that made 20 or 30 that were being punished. I don't really think this is overkill.

Hm, I was not aware that it had gone up that much since the 340,000 player (well, "accounts") announcement. That's good news.

However the relative percentage doesn't really matter that much. Remember the SoE ban? Less than one percent was banned and the backlash was intense.

[Vayne]

Hm, I was not aware that it had gone up that much since the 340,000 player (well, "accounts") announcement. That's good news.

However the relative percentage doesn't really matter that much. Remember the SoE ban? Less than one percent was banned and the backlash was intense.

The backlash won't be that bad. For one thing, most people banned were banned for 72 hours and those who contact customer support can get unbanned. So a few people lose 3 days of play on a game with no monthly fee, for doing something they should have known better than?

I don't see this as being as big a deal and in fact, I've seen more support than complaint about it. A lot of people are happy they're going after exploiters. I'm one of them.

Edit: It was 400,000 concurrent users in the headstart. But there were more than 1 million prepurchases, not including preorders or what sold on launch day. I suspect we're far closer now to 2 million than 1 million.

[Scud]

Like anything, if you're not sure, you don't have to do it.

Yes you might limit your enjoyment of this vast tapestry we call living.

..but hey, it's a process. Patterns can be learnt, behaviours generated, intents realised.

Now, if you can't identify patterns, generate appropriate behaviours and realise intents without falling of a cliff, being eaten by a werewolk, stabbing a dude with a pitch fork, drinking bleach, gargling glass, selling your kneecaps or eating your own tongue, then...

..then nothing.

Ah well.

:thumbsup:

[Hoern]

The backlash won't be that bad. For one thing, most people banned were banned for 72 hours and those who contact customer support can get unbanned. So a few people lose 3 days of play on a game with no monthly fee, for doing something they should have known better than?

Not disagreeing with you, there. There is a slight question as to the overall perception. We saw this before, if you recall, with Warhammer, with Aion, and other games, where small things blossomed out into an "us vs. them" mentality in part of the player base. One of the reason I like Rift a lot is the developer transparency and speed of customer communication.


I don't see this as being as big a deal and in fact, I've seen more support than complaint about it. A lot of people are happy they're going after exploiters. I'm one of them.

Oh, me as well. What I bemoan is the rather mum attitude and the fact that I believe in slow penalty action ramp ups instead of massive banhammers in the first week - at least what players who game the system are concerned. The game is in many, many, ways extremely polished. In some areas it needs a little spit shine, and the downed TP and with it the player economy is one of those. I'd just have loved to see a more public and slower/muted reaction instead of the railgun response.


Edit: It was 400,000 concurrent users in the headstart. But there were more than 1 million prepurchases, not including preorders or what sold on launch day. I suspect we're far closer now to 2 million than 1 million.

... as witnessed by my having to resort to name #7 in my choices since everything else is taken. If Vyrglob is already taken I KNOW there's a massive playerbase out there. Heck, I ran into the guy who has my (12 year old) first choice MMO name and he told me he'd chosen it because it was the name of his favorite AddOn author in WoW (me) and he always wanted it. Small world or overcrowded? You tell me. :)

[Centaur]

I think the biggest problem with perception is that a lot of people hear/read about this story, don't get all the details, and form an incorrect image of what was really happening here.
Many people hear only the part about people buying something off an in-game merchant who sold things below the normal price, and being banned for it. They have no idea what was going on, but this scares them to the point where they are afraid to buy stuff from in-game merchants at all.
But it all makes sense to them once they realize that (a) this merchant was selling high level stuff at 1,000 times cheaper than normal, so it should be immediately obvious that there was something wrong here, and (b) people didn't get banned for buying 1 or 2 items from that merchant... people got banned for repeatedly farming him for personal profit.

Just look at yesterday's update:

In the past 24 hours we permanently banned 292 accounts for RMT-related botting and spamming, and suspended 23 accounts for using very offensive language or names.

I don't think anybody will argue about the real money trading bans. 23 temporary suspensions for very offensive language is very, very low if you consider the far over 1 million people playing this game by now. And that's all. No other bans! So I don't think people have a thing to worry about. ArenaNet definitely aren't "freely swinging the ban hammer" all over the place... they only take action if something is really disrupting the game or the economy.

[thezeronumber]

Came online this morning to see the topic is 22 pages long. Some people really cannot drop a subject they have been proved wrong in, aye.

[Hoern]

23 temporary suspensions for very offensive language is very, very low if you consider the far over 1 million people playing this game by now. And that's all. No other bans! So I don't think people have a thing to worry about. ArenaNet definitely aren't "freely swinging the ban hammer" all over the place... they only take action if something is really disrupting the game or the economy.

Oh, I agree with the foul language ones. I am no prude (if you must know, 12 years military, 8 years as a cop, I don't blush easily) but the sooner we get rid of the kids whose idea of fun are such names, the better.

I don't disagree with the differentiation between "coders gone wild" and what ArenaNet is doing. Again, however, instead of letting the whiners and banneds set the tone (see G+ for example) a more customer-facing communication would have been 3/4th of the win. The very second you see it happening post publicly that if you see it continue you'll ban. Then ban. And aside from 200+ affected exploiters no one would have spent more than a second thinking about it.

[Lagger]

Oh, I agree with the foul language ones. I am no prude (if you must know, 12 years military, 8 years as a cop, I don't blush easily) but the sooner we get rid of the kids whose idea of fun are such names, the better.

I don't disagree with the differentiation between "coders gone wild" and what ArenaNet is doing. Again, however, instead of letting the whiners and banneds set the tone (see G+ for example) a more customer-facing communication would have been 3/4th of the win. The very second you see it happening post publicly that if you see it continue you'll ban. Then ban. And aside from 200+ affected exploiters no one would have spent more than a second thinking about it.

It's a known fact of the internet that people are 7 times more likely to post if they have something negative to say than if they have something positive to say. You could phrase it like "For every positive comment, you will on average see 7 negative comments".

This is known by almost everyone to some degree, perhaps they don't realise it but they perceive the internet as a rather bitchy place to be. Hence, this won't have as much impact on the publicity as some might think. It hardly appears on the radar of media outlets and if it does, they present it as ArenaNet protecting the community.

There won't be any negative public backlash. And people really need to know by now that you can't take reddit as seriously as some people make it out to be.

But here's what makes me happy... I know for a fact that there are more lurkers on the internet quietly watching and judging for themselves without telling anyone. And those guys are the majority, just look at the bottom of this thread at any given point in time. More guests than members. And most of those anonymous watchers are likely to be quite happy about ArenaNet taking care of them by removing disturbing elements from the game. And you will never, ever hear this silent, invisible group thank ArenaNet or publicly (is that spelled right? :P) support ArenaNet.

Not all is lost. ;)

[Hoern]

There won't be any negative public backlash. And people really need to know by now that you can't take reddit as seriously as some people make it out to be.

You mean to tell me that the place that had Barack Obama answer questions while another group next door shared bestiality pictures isn't serious? :)


Not all is lost. ;)

Oh, sadly it is. I just salvaged my best weapon... time for bed, methinks, nothing good can come from salvaging tired.

[Valheru]

Just wondering why this thread isn't locked. I read over the whole, thing, and got a headache and Dizzy. it's just going in circles. around and around and around.

From every thing that I have read everywhere that mention this they did not ban people who just bought a couple items for personal use, but they banned people that over used it and would screw up the game for other people.

The Permaban... Ok I love how everyone says this was way to harsh. Basically looking at it myself I'm willing h bet those permabans were NEVER meant to be permabans. It was just a We banned a ton of people, we need to announce what ti was and why, Lets just say perma ban as we discuss behind the scenes how it should be handled, then when we come back with the real punishment of 3 days we don't get a ton of people complaining you banned me for 3 days! That's not fair, it should have only been 1-2 days and making me delete my stuff. But saying they are permabanned, and then 3 days to respond to tickets and validate who acknowledged wrong doing makes all those people feel lucky that they were not perma banned and got their accounts and 3 days was actually pretty short.

That is my take on the permaban. The reason why it is my take: When I got on for the day and saw this issue posted up. The permaban post was posted, and then edit to the 3 days if you send in a ticket and remove the ill gotten gains was ALREADY UP. If they changed the punishment in response to community outrage it would have at the MINIMUM been a week before they caved... They have so many other things to deal with in working things out they would have waited the week simply because they had better things to do.

The behind the scenes discussion probably went more along the lines of they are removing their loot. ok, 1 day, 2 days, 3 days, 5 days or 7 days, how long should we announce the temp ban for, 3 days? ok wait some hours so a lot of the people have a chance to really freak out and get that we are serious be fore we become merciful, and then make sure they know that if you find something like this, report it and do not exploit it or we will ban you.

I agree for a first time since game launch the first issue being perm banned would be way over board... which is why the first issue was not perm banned, they just sent a clear message/warning that the second issue WILL be perm banned. And now you have been warned you can't complain because we told you back with that karma exploit that you were going to be perm banned if you abused something like this.

And because Lagger said something. Thank you Arenanet for stopping people from ruining what looks to be a very good game.

[Lagger]

Oh, sadly it is. I just salvaged my best weapon... time for bed, methinks, nothing good can come from salvaging tired.

Oh dear... well, the good thing is, you'll get a better weapon soon and no harm is done. :D

[Ruse]

I couldn't resist resurrecting this.

http://i.imgur.com/k66Ae.png

[iDwarf]

Conclusion: Exploiting Guild Wars 2 gets you crushed by a giant hoof.

[The_Reginald]

Of course not -- that's a market working as intended.

The exploit here was not players who bought a set of gear. Those people were not banned. The people who got themselves banned were buying multiple copies of the gear and then using the mystic forge and so on -- it was an exploit because the players acted like they needed to make hay while the sun was shining (i.e., before the price was fixed -- they were acting like they needed to buy as much as possible before it was fixed, which indicates they knew they were exploiting a bug).

Exploits are always "the developers fault" from the perspective that there is a bug/design issue that is being exploited by players. What makes it an exploit is not the developers mistake, but the actions of the players in response to the mistake. The people who were buying this gear in bulk knew they were exploiting a bug (or sure acted like they did), so they deserve the bans they got.What I was worried about was what if a player bought a bunch of bugged items for a cheap price and then sold them also cheaply on the trade post. So the question is would I get banned for buying the items from the person selling bugged items on the trade post. You can't necessarily tell if the price was just dropped because of the in game economy or if someone was selling bugged items.

[Ruse]

What I was worried about was what if a player bought a bunch of bugged items for a cheap price and then sold them also cheaply on the trade post. So the question is would I get banned for buying the items from the person selling bugged items on the trade post. You can't necessarily tell if the price was just dropped because of the in game economy or if someone was selling bugged items.

No, you wouldn't get banned for buying from the trading post.

[Wendigo]

Here's the thing everyone is forgetting: This exploit was not the only exploit ANet banned people for. It was the most dramatic and clearest case of an exploit, certainly, which makes the OP seem like a ridiculous question. But, there was another exploit that was in no way shape or form obvious. Through this "exploit," you could convert karma to copper on a 1:4 basis. ! karma got you 4 copper pieces from a vendor. Hardly an unreasonable sum (I'd actually call it pretty poor, seeing my current karma to gold ratio, and that's while I'm trying to stockpile karma). But, people got banned for it, and now those cooking ingredients are soulbound and you get nothing for trading them to vendors (which means I exploited when I sold some craft-level-grinding products to vendors a few days into the game).

So yes, buying thousands of ridiculously cheap items was obviously not intended. But this? Sorry, I'm not a mind-reader, but ANet has demonstrated that we are expected to be.

Focus on the 21 Karma items all you like, but understand that's located about a thousand miles past the line you are not to cross.

[Ruse]

I've not read anything about bans for selling food items back for gold. Can you point me to the source? :smile2:

[LazerEagle1]

I couldn't resist resurrecting this.

http://i.imgur.com/k66Ae.png

OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD! Loadsamoney! *do doo do do doo* Look up Loadsamoney on YouTube if you don't understand.

[Wendigo]

I've not read anything about bans for selling food items back for gold. Can you point me to the source? :smile2:
Here's the youtube video from a person who was banned for it. He was streamcasting his play, so at first he got a 72 suspension for "advertising an exploit." Later, he was given a permanent ban just for the exploit. That fact he learned for the first time from a GM post on Reddit, who was responding to a third party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxb-anRWHrA&list=UUeBMccz-PDZf6OB4aV6a3eA&index=10&feature=plcp
And then when it was upgraded to permanent: Follow link because I can't post 2 videos. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMTmBrwmjf0&list=UUeBMccz-PDZf6OB4aV6a3eA&index=9&feature=plcp)
Note: the suspension happened before the 21 karma ban, so he couldn't get banned for that :)

[Ruse]

Eh, I'll have to watch it later. I have a hard time watching most streamcasters anyway. Does he specifically link to where he was told why he was banned on reddit? I'd rather just read that, lol.

[Wendigo]

They don't say why he was banned on reddit (they say why he was banned on the error message he gets when he tries to log in). But, you can find the post where they announced his banning here. (http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z3qqm/guild_wars_2_status_thursday_august_30/) (Ctrl-F "Kripp" to speed your way through, it will be a response to your second hit)

And the second post greatly exaggerates what he did.

[Ruse]

Ah. I'll just watch the video, lol. I tried Control Fing through a billion "show more posts" it felt like and still found nothing. Thanks for the link!

[Vayne]

The problem is the video is we get one side of the story. I don't know specifically what he was buying or selling. So why he was banned or not banned is what he says. We know that it was said he was advertising an exploit, but he's making a assumption what that specific exploit was...and it might not be that. It might be genuine and he might not be, but there's no way for us to know. I know if I really were advertising an exploit and I was trying to "get out of it" I'd say pretty much what he said. And then again, he might have been wrongly banned. But without knowing the specifics how can we know.

I think that in being over-zealous, sometimes Anet is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. On the other hand, a 72 hour ban isn't the end of the world either. Basically, if something is too good to be true, you should probably check it before investing heavily in it. That makes sense to me. If something seems like you can make a ton of gold very fast and easily...it's probably not meant to be that way..and before I did it, I'd definitely give it a good thought.

I mean selling a rare drop for a lot of gold is one thing. Taking something that's very common and making it into something you can get a ton of gold for? I wouldn't do it personally, because it wreaks of an exploit. Whether it is or not, I'd be cautious.

[iDwarf]

Isn't Kripp known for exploiting games?:confused:

[Gendry2016]

Since I've spent so much time in this thread, I felt compelled to weigh in. The only defense of the violators is ignorance of the fact that the low cost was a bug. Common sense should override that excuse.
Other than that, no excuse. It's in the tos agreement clear as crystal. They don't need to list every potential exploitation of bugs. That's a clown defense, bro. You lose. You get nothing (at least for 72 hours). Good day, sir.

[Avariz]

The way that I would phrase it is this. The difference between a bug in a game and fair winnings in a market is that game designers, game programmers, and quality controllers do not want the error bug. The bug is not suppose to be in the game to be 'exploited'. The bug is against the game. Fair winning in the market is expected by the workers of the game and players as well. Fair winning in the market is part of the game and the error 'exploit' bug is not.

For some people 'exploit' on its own in a game do not warrant the seriousness ArenaNet dealt with the matter. However have anyone consider the linkage between making tons of gold from game bugs and gold sellers. The scary part of that is gold sellers do not just exploit game bugs. Some gold sellers actually hack players' accounts and sell the victims' items for more gold. Given such prevalent cases that caused problems to players and ArenaNet, severity of response can be reassuring to a number of people.

[The_Reginald]

did a mod seriously just delete my reply

[penatbater]

I'm confused as to what is now bannable. =/

[Izzy]

did a mod seriously just delete my reply

You don't need call anyone names, just share your opinion without directing insults at an individual. :)

[Lagger]

I'm confused as to what is now bannable. =/

If you really were born and raised without any moral compass whatsoever, here is a good rule of thumb for you:

If you're doing something and seriously asking yourself if you're going to get banned for it, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

[zilliman]

Well yes that's a good point but I still don't think its fair to ban the players for doing something the programmers put in even if it was an obvious mistake. IMO bottom line blame the programmer that messed up.
The programmer messed up unintentionally (we cannot know that of course).

The players messed up intentionally.

But I also think permanent account bans are silly. It's not as if this game has taken over the world and they do not want any more sales. All I hear from the start is "bans".

[Centaur]

All I hear from the start is "bans".

That's not because of the exploits (the vast majority of those people are long back in the game), but more because of the thousands of hacked accounts. All the hacked accounts are temporarily suspended until they can be turned over to their original owners, but people perceive this as being "banned". But that's an entirely different discussion...

[Vayne]

The programmer messed up unintentionally (we cannot know that of course).

The players messed up intentionally.

But I also think permanent account bans are silly. It's not as if this game has taken over the world and they do not want any more sales. All I hear from the start is "bans".

I don't know that seeing people banned for exploits would stop me from buying a game. I think it would encourage me to buy a game. I'd say, good for Anet they're taking a tough stance.

And btw, very very few of these bans have been permabans. Most of them, the largest percentage are 72 hour bans.

People keep saying permanently banned, but you really have to cross some serious lines to get there. I know two people who received bans, both of them quite honestly knowing that it was an exploit and using it anyway, and both people were "perma-banned", contacted support and it was converted to a 72 hour ban, though the profits they got from the exploit were taken away from them.

It's not really as big a deal as people make it out to be.

[The_Reginald]

You don't need call anyone names, just share your opinion without directing insults at an individual. :)it was a counter