Toughness vs Vitality

[Fey]

I know this is beside the point, but is WoW really that bad?

You'd be surprised how much people actually enjoy grinding and farming for gear, despite how often they complain about it. GW2 has been a crazy experiment on the MMO industry as a whole. It's shown us that a lot of people don't actually like to just have fun and run around, they'd rather log in and be given goals to complete with numbers to fill.

They log into GW2 and got confused, with very few "go here do this" objectives and straight paths to level, they found it frustrating. Though, a lot of people that play WoW aren't actually gamers either. It's more of a pass time and a social enviorment since so many people have at least tried it at one point or another.

As Vayne said. It all comes down to preference.

[Vayne]

You'd be surprised how much people actually enjoy grinding and farming for gear, despite how often they complain about it. GW2 has been a crazy experiment on the MMO industry as a whole. It's shown us that a lot of people don't actually like to just have fun and run around, they'd rather log in and be given goals to complete with numbers to fill.

They log into GW2 and got confused, with very few "go here do this" objectives and straight paths to level, they found it frustrating. Though, a lot of people that play WoW aren't actually gamers either. It's more of a pass time and a social enviorment since so many people have at least tried it at one point or another.

As Vayne said. It all comes down to preference.

I think that the problem is that MMOs have always been niche games. Even at its height, WoW was considered niche by the rest of the gaming industry. Sure it's the most successful MMOs but MMOs are far from the most successful type of game.

WoW appeals to a certain mindset and has turned a whole generation of gamers off from ANY MMO even if it's different. So the MMO players, particularly the newer ones who never played anything but WoW and WoW clones come here and they don't know what to do. Because they're used to being led around by the nose.

There are, however a whole lot of people who don't like to be led around by the nose, so they don't play MMOs at all, and some of those people have come to Guild Wars 2 and are enjoying it.

And I still think a lot of the people who gave it a 2 hour try and said it's not for them, never really gave the game a chance, because it does take time to unlearn what you've learned.

How many people have we seen on this forum who came on, started complaining about Guild Wars 2, kept playing and ended up, over time, understanding why certain design choices were made. I can think of half a dozen off hand.

Actually, I think WoW is more addictive than enjoyable to most people, and that it was designed that way. Even I foun WoW addictive, even though I wasn't enjoying the game. But while addiction may very well equal profit for Blizzard, that doesn't mean that people necessarily enjoy grind.

It's a pretty complex issue, actually.

[Fey]

And I still think a lot of the people who gave it a 2 hour try and said it's not for them, never really gave the game a chance, because it does take time to unlearn what you've learned.

How many people have we seen on this forum who came on, started complaining about Guild Wars 2, kept playing and ended up, over time, understanding why certain design choices were made. I can think of half a dozen off hand.

This is kind of what I was getting at. A lof of MMO players just aren't gamers. They don't view video games the same way, they don't approach them or critique them the same. If no ones there to hold their hand tell them what to do they get frustrated/bored/confused because they feel like they're not accomplishing anything.

[Lagger]

I think that the problem is that MMOs have always been niche games. Even at its height, WoW was considered niche by the rest of the gaming industry. Sure it's the most successful MMOs but MMOs are far from the most successful type of game.

I've read this statement from you a lot of times by now and have let it stood. But now I'm going to dispute that. MMOs hasn't been a niche since at least the release of WoW. The gaming industry has almost certainly never considered WoW a niche product, hence the attempt to copy it from numerous AAA companies. You need to stop thinking that, because that is a wrong view of the gaming industry. Take the whole segment and you're looking at over 20 million players. And no, there aren't hundreds of million gamers as you like to think. Facebook etc. doesn't really count, we're talking about AAA titles, not penny ripoffs that you find on facebook, itunes or android playstore.

Titles like Battlefield 3 and Call of Duty have not sold more than 10 million copies, and the shooter fans may have bought both games. And those are huge titles. And considering the way MMOs tend to bind players to a specific brand, it's probably just as successful if not more than real smash hits like PES or FIFA series, both of which are heavily trying to bind players to their respective brands.

[Stonesolid]

I've read this statement from you a lot of times by now and have let it stood. But now I'm going to dispute that. MMOs hasn't been a niche since at least the release of WoW. The gaming industry has almost certainly never considered WoW a niche product, hence the attempt to copy it from numerous AAA companies. You need to stop thinking that, because that is a wrong view of the gaming industry. Take the whole segment and you're looking at over 20 million players. And no, there aren't hundreds of million gamers as you like to think. Facebook etc. doesn't really count, we're talking about AAA titles, not penny ripoffs that you find on facebook, itunes or android playstore.

Titles like Battlefield 3 and Call of Duty have not sold more than 10 million copies, and the shooter fans may have bought both games. And those are huge titles. And considering the way MMOs tend to bind players to a specific brand, it's probably just as successful if not more than real smash hits like PES or FIFA series, both of which are heavily trying to bind players to their respective brands.

Last year alone COD:MW3 sold over 12 million Xbox 360 copies, over 10 million PS3 copies, and around 700k PC copies.

[Lagger]

Even so, that doesn't make the MMO market a niche. Just a different segment with perhaps admittedly smaller sales numbers. But not a niche product with a lot lower numbers...

[Fey]

WoW isn't niche because it tries to appeal to everyone, not because of how many people play it. The Secret World is niche because it focused on one specific selling point.

CoD is niche for the same reason. You could walk up to a crowd of people and ask if any of them have played WoW and potentially see a huge amount of diversity in people who have played. Age, gender, etc. You could then ask them what they focus on in game and see an equal amount of diversity between all of the features available. CoD is a more specific market. How successful a product is doesn't really matter.

[bokiz333]

This is my first MMO...and I believe they are a niche. My friends are a really diverse mixture of people from all walks of life. Foreign people, americans, jocks, preppy, whatever...and most of them play some sort of game on an Xbox, PS3, etc but very few play PC games in general. And of those, even fewer play MMO's. It is a niche game and there is no way around it.

When I tell people I play GW2 now, they look at me with that "so you're playing an online RPG?....that's all kinds of nerdy dude"...most people have that perception of the genre. If you say I'm playing MW: COD or Madden 2012 they're like "Oh ok" even if they don't play it themselves, its perceived completely differently. MMO's are a niche period in that sense.

[Ender4000]

MMORPG aren't a niche market, they just aren't a large market. Any time my dad, myself and my son all played the same type of game you can generally rest assured it isn't a niche market~. They lack a large market because they are too complex to make work on a console so they aren't aimed at a mass market like some other games.

Hex based wargames are a niche market. Realistic military shooters are a niche market. Specific MMOs can be part of a niche market, Darkfall being an example. MMORPGs as a whole are not though. They do appeal to a massive range of players with a wide range of tastes.

[mayito7777]

After 300 + hours I am taking a long break from the game, RL and getting tired of playing can do that to you. I managed to get 2 toons to 80 1, 25, 1 21, 1 28 so I am taking at least a month off. Will post back again sometime in December. My only peeve is the system right now in place about dungeons. I have not been able to run any one (except 1 exploration style). So I cannot finish my main line quest in 1 of my 80s and in the other one the Battle for Fort Trinity is bugged so I have tried like 10 times with no luck. Will cool off for a while to see if Arena Net comes out with a better system for dungeons, maybe something similar to WoW. Also I hope they get some of these bugs fixed.