There is risk in this game. Having to port to a waypoint is annoying enough, plus all the cost of repairs gives you motivation enough to not want to die.
This game is also far more fun than any of the other mmorpg games out there.
I disagree 100%.
There is risk in this game. Having to port to a waypoint is annoying enough, plus all the cost of repairs gives you motivation enough to not want to die.
This game is also far more fun than any of the other mmorpg games out there.
I disagree 100%.
There is no real risk in end game raiding in most games unless they have an XP penalty, the risk has always just been a minor gold sink.
The reward is slightly scaling numbers that allow you to keep camping the same content more efficiently at least at release of each game. There is usually only one tier of raiding. I've done the PvE item grind thing and it just isn't fun. I'm glad that there are games out there that do it so that those that enjoy it have something to play but I really hope they don't ruin GW2 by going that path because camping the same content in a huge group over and over and over again to get marginal upgrades and then repeating the process each new expansion just isn't fun or rewarding gameplay. There has to be better ways to do it.
While I understand that some of you feel that I am unduly attacking this game I want to ensure everyone that I am not some blind mongrel like people would like to paint me in on these forums. Unlike many of the 'I quit' threads, I actually know what I am talking about, I've played the game to max content and beyond and while some of my assertions might not sit well with you, they are still as valid as if I were praising those same aspects.
PVE holds no interest for me. Look at GW1 - the content was HARD even on normal mode at times (until Heroes) Thunderhead Keep or whatever comes to mind. You go try to finish that place with all the bonuses. Some may call it a bug, but if it was a bug - ANET didn't bother fixing it from release till now, current. No - the content was hard, it had risk (a very steep death penalty) and honestly - even Prophecies had more content after max level than GW2 does (you hit 20 somewhere in the desert and if you didn't you were bumped to 20 by Ascending or whatever) you still had all of the desert to do, all of the Ring of Fire and MOST of the southern Shiverpeaks including an area that they opened up Sorrows Furnace. Leveling might have been fast in the game, but MOST of the content was AFTER you hit max level.
Compare that to GW2. You can go back and revisit lower level areas and downlevel sure. But honestly it takes you perhaps and hour or two to walk around the zone and see the sites, do events etc. I am sitting at 97% map completion, most jumping puzzles are complete. What is there to do once all of that is done? Go back and look into every pixel hole to see if you missed something?
Seriously, its clear that there is a difference in play styles here. I am neither hardcore or casual - I am somewhere in between. I am the kind of person who wants the TIME I spend in a game to FEEL like it means something, that it furthers a goal of some kind for the greater good (or evil). GW2 doesn't feel this way at all. You start the game knowing that you WILL defeat the antagonist, there is no question in your mind if you will succeed or fail. There is no RISK of failing. Eventually you will all fight all the other elder dragons and SUCCEED. Why? Because it wouldn't be a happy ending otherwise. Even in your personal story there is very little in the way of 'strife' or 'setbacks' happening. The personal story is still one of the highlights for me, but again - its over - its done. There are only so many little variations between the different races/factions etc and really it amounts to nothing. The end result will ALWAYS be the same - you can't change how it ends. You KILL the dragon.
Maybe MMO's are dying out for me. Nothing can hold my interest cause I can't stand raiding and I can't stand having nothing to do all together. But I am not going to sit idle while specific people attempt to insult my intelligence on this forum because I don't agree with them. I am not some average scrub who doesn't know anything after level 20 in this game. I poured my heart into this game for MONTHS before the game came out and I followed it even longer. I played without expectation aside from the expectation that ANET would wow me every step of the way. There were some of those moments - but in the end - its grind. Grind for loot, grind for money, grind for the glory of your world, grind for karma, grind for dungeon tokens for that ugly ass gear, grind for SPVP honor.
I could grind in any other game and have it have consequence. This entire game is a grind. And before you say "Oh but you don't have to grind" I call BULLSHIT. Cause if you're not DOING one of those things you're standing around LA in your shiny armor, spinning in circles. Or RPing - which again - I can do from level 2 on...hell I could even RP in the tutorial if I wanted to.
This will be the last thing I post in this thread. I don't need to defend my reasons any further to why I am not playing this game and clearly my desire to have a logical open conversation concerning these reasons has come up against a few hostile members of the community. I don't have the time to debate this - the bottom line is this:
My reasons might not be the only ones, but they sure as shit wont be invalidated by people attacking my person.
I respect your opinion but your views on gaming are completely aimed at a power gamers mindset and this statement illustrates it better than any. You seem to honestly believe that the only way to play a MMO is to grind and it simply is not true. I do whatever happens to be fun at the time and I really could care less about the rewards, that is not a grind. I never once at any point in this game did something because I felt the game forced it on me and that is what grinding is. Grinding isn't just putting time into the game, it is being forced by the game to put your time into one specific area to progress. GW2 doesn't do that if you play it the way I do.This entire game is a grind. And before you say "Oh but you don't have to grind" I call BULLSHIT. Cause if you're not DOING one of those things you're standing around LA in your shiny armor, spinning in circles
No MMO has a real "risk" to PvE. Not even GW1 which you hold up as some shining example of risk. (Hello DP removers.) You want risk in GW2? Go to WvW. Take a keep. Claim it. Pour gold into upgrading it, pour gold and time into building siege, upgrade the siege with your skill points in the Mystic Forge. Hold it as long as you can, and then ... you have to go to bed. Hope that all that you put into it doesn't disappear by the time you wake up the next day.
You list a lot of things you don't like. Like PvE. But you don't actually say what's wrong with it, other than "The game decided to set an arbitrary max level differently than it did in GW1!" And the no risk thing, which we've already covered.
As for story, did you ever actually expect that GW1's story would end differently? Does Skyrim's? Nope. You kill the dragon. GW1, there's not even ANY deviation in personal story. Each campaign is exactly the same each time you play through it and -- spoiler alert! -- your character ends up saving the day and being the hero! Boy, does that sound familiar.
Then, after all this, you take a martyr stance. "Oh my god, people are attacking my character and hinting I'm a scrub and and and GRIND!" /dramatic swoon. Yet you start your whole thread out in as inflammatory language as you can possibly manage. You're just as obnoxious a detractor as you were a supporter, because you enter every argument with blinders on. It can't be that people just don't see it your way, that they disagree; they must be attacking you personally!
Grind is what you make of it. I haven't grinded for a single damn thing in this game. I have mostly exotic gear (still deciding what I want my jewelry to be, though I have the mats for it). I have quite a bit of gold tucked away for something special. I grab nodes of things as I run by them, I help guildies through dungeons they need, I run a dungeon for myself maybe a couple of times a week. I craft when I feel like it (never used these efficiency guides and guess what, they're maxing out just fine). I WvW when I feel like it, which happens to be often (lol "grinding" for glory for my world). I explore/do map completions when I feel like it (sitting at around 63-64 percent world completion). I load into sPvP to kill and be killed by guildies when I feel like it. I just finished personal story about a week ago, and guess what? I typically play a couple of hours a day, much more on days off, since early access.
One of us sees "grind" everywhere because he apparently chooses to repeat unfun activities over and over and over because "the game makes him." One of us doesn't do anything she doesn't feel like doing, isn't at any competitive disadvantage whatsoever and isn't a burned out, bitter ex-fangirl who feels the need to be as aggressive about the game's flaws as he once was about the game's virtues.
One of these days you'll grow up and realize that everything's not black and white, and that it doesn't have to be personal every time somebody disagrees with you.
EDIT: As to the whole "but the rewards aren't worth it!" thing I keep seeing. I don't play basketball with my friends and then ask "What do I get?" when the game is over. I don't play basketball for better basketball shoes, or so I can play on some different court. I play because it's fun to compete with and against friends. Crawl out of your Skinner boxes and understand that fun is a worthwhile thing, whether it comes with a +1 to anything or not.
Last edited by Ruse; 10-25-2012 at 12:20 AM.
|| Art by Melo-san of Gaia Online ||
|| GW2 ID: Ruse Torrent | Elementalist of Acolytes [Aco], a WvW guild ||
|| Woe to the conquered, all glory to the Acolytes. Rise. Fall. Rise again. ||
And I have a character at max level, have maxed crafting skills and still have plenty to do. The fact is, your opinion isn't more knowledgable than mine or anyone else's. Because its' opinions.Originally Posted by shokenaw
As I said all of the times when we spoke about it and others had opinions their opinions are just as valid as yours, because they ARE opinions. You're trying to turn your opinion into fact because you played the game for a long time. Well, some of us, including me and several the the guildies you played with, the guys who got to level 80 around the same time you did, are still having a great time and are still enjoying the content.
You simply can't stand the fact that your opinion is just an opinion. No amount of experience is going to make your opinion more right than it is. And no amount of your experience is going to make my opinion less than it is. They're both opinions.
No one is saying you aren't entitled to your opinion. All I'm saying is that you don't have to insult a company when expressing it. That's a personal choice.
So you paid $60 for a game and got a couple of months out of it, had fun for that time and now you're bored. I still call that a sound investment. Now go play another game and have some fun.
Because sitting here trying to convince people who are enjoying a game that they shouldn't be because you don't is quite silly. I mean what if you succeed? Are you improving the quality of those people's lives? Are you helping them somehow?
I think Shokenaw has a few very valid points that, like I said before, have been pointed out by me and others even before release. The lack of reward in PVE for the huge amount of people that like that kind of gameplay was something that has always cast doubt on the game's longevity for me.
And I can still remember the days when Shokenaw would come to a complaint thread and bash the OP's opinion for insulting his beloved game by saying something along the lines of "go play WoW if you like a carrot on a stick" if anyone even dared to criticise the lack of reward. Now I'm not implying that he would like that kind of gameplay. Reading his past posts would educate everyone to the point that you'd know he's some serious beef with that other vicious game.
But nevertheless his leaving post reminds me of lots of these posts that were discussing the problem of seemingly lacking endgame content and this gives me kind of an "I informed you thusly"-feeling. Not that I revel in it. I don't like my games of choice failing in such important aspects. I'd like this game to succeed, but from a PVE point of view I just can't see it doing so without a different reward system (Not that I'd want the kind of gear treadmill; especially from a PVP point of view)
Mind you, for me, (and lots of others) this game will be a success as long as WvW exists, because it's that kind of PVP a lot of us have longed for since the demise of DAOC and the obvious shortcomings of WAR (but as said even this has lots of room for improvement). Because that kind of gameplay is rewarding to me. You come to a map which is all red and turn it blue in a few hours effort and at the end you can see what you and a ton of others have achieved. No real reward in term of items (you get the odd drop but that's more of a means to cut the costs of upgrades, siege equipment and repairs), but the kind of warm feeling in your heart you only get when you just seriously kicked some guy's virtual ass.
But lots of people, like Shokenaw, obviously aren't into that kind of PVP (or PVP at all at that) and for those I seriously doubt the longevity of the game. And I can seriously take my guild as an example. We are/were 25 people which were recruited from a core of rl acquaintances with the odd few additions we picked up in the first few days of playing. As I'm writing we are down to my wife, me, and four or five others. Some are enjoying pandaland, some have vanished from my radar at all. Probably, (and hopefully) the attrition is not as high in all guilds, but I certainly see a lot less activity in game than earlier. Again, this is bound to happen in every game and ANet has made its cut by selling the game; However, they probably wouldn't have added the cashshop if they wouldn't also need that extra revenue of people buying upgrades to their account or boosts or whatnot. But maybe I'm wrong and ANet got lavishly rich just from selling the copies and everything coming in now just goes into the bags of the fat cat owners. But I seriously doubt it.
And that's were I am also casting doubt on the future success on the game. I think, it won't really attract that many more people than it had when it came out. Sure, there are the odd people who jump onto the bandwagon a little later. WoW had tons of it, but this happened because it opened up a niche genre to the masses. This has already happened by now and I doubt there are lots of people out there who like MMOs (that's the people who'd likely have GW 2 on their radar) that haven't already given it a try (except of course the avid fans of other MMOs who didn't try it out of respect for their own beloved game, but those aren't very likely to jump over in the future too).
So in my opinion this game has already reached its buyers; but as it obviously failed in delivering what some people craved for, lots of these people have already moved on. And lots more will follow; the slower levellers are yet to reach max.lvl, so they might still be having fun. But at some point they will also reach the "endgame" and eiter be disappointed or not. But lots of people are disappointed. Lots aren't. I'm not going to doubt that. The question is: are enough people not disappointed in the long run? And none of us can answer that. Only ANet could tell us if they're getting the revenue out of the game they were hoping they'd get.
I still believe, truly believe that there are just as many, if not more people, who don't care about the reward system in the same way you and Shoke do, but then those very people didn't come from MMOs in the first place. That's the point I keep trying to make. MMO players expect rewards, because games like that are rewarding. FPS players don't, and they're just as popular...more popular even...than MMOs. RPG players don't generally play for rewards either. It's a different mind set.
A lot of people play a lot of games that don't give these rewards. Those who like the games that did give rewards feel like that is missing. Those that played other games that don't, dont' feel that is missing. I think it's a much bigger group than you think it is. Just as you tend to think people who share your opinion are the most numerous, I think that even more people who share my opinion are out there. They simply didn't play MMOs, because most MMOs sucked from my point of view.
If Guild Wars succeeds in attracting those people, it will blow the field wide open, because until now to the genre, MMOs, even WoW has always been considered a niche game.
I agree. I think your opinion is a good one, as opposed to the ones who just spout nonsensical crap. I just don't agree with it and I respect your view.
As I mentioned, I, personally, don't believe this game lacks rewards for me personally; I'm one of the people who get their fun out of hindering other people's fun (a.k.a. PVP). WvW is all I've ever wanted in a game and more (even though it's inbalanced as hell and lacks lots of features that would make it even better; but I have my hopes high that this part of the game will get some love, sooner or later) I'm also an online-FPS player. I love BF3 even though I'm not really good at it (For me it's a big success to get a positve k/d ratio on Noshar TDM without using a shotgun
).
And I also stated that I'm perfectly fine with the rewards, as I'm not that kind of player. But I know a lot of them and they are not fine with them. I loathe dungeons in any game. I've done a few here and must say I'm equally unimpressed. The non-existing (or at least unpredictable) threat-mechanic is fun at first, but in the end a dungeon should have some big shiny chest at the end. And that's exactly were my beef with this game would begin, if I was a PVE player in the sense of a dungeon raider. The reward for going in this or that dungeon is negligible at best. The hat is a joke (let me at least choose what kind of item I want, if you don't want boss-loot tables like in that other game, everybody seems to hate
At the end it's all opinion, of course. You have yours and back it with your claim to know tons of players who share it. I have mine and can also claim to know lots of people who think this or that is wrong with the game. The success or lack of it can only be measured by the people of ArenaNet who have access to their books and decide if they're getting the kind of revenue they're looking for. But it's fun to discuss it, nonetheless (do you write that so?). At least to me.
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