Raids

[WyattEarp]

OK...i've searched all over the internet to see if Anet has hinted at any possibilities in adding raids. I did see on one mmorpg site that they had a tab for "raids" for GW2. I'm hoping that's because they know something I don't. For more hardcore players, the game needs raids. I believe that the best challenges are met by combining the teamwork of many players. Do I think that players should be rewarded by better gear? Hell yeah...that's part of the reward. I've looked over several of the complaints with raids and here they are basically...

1.You have to have a collaberation of 10-25 people. (so ? That's part of the risk/reward...it wouldn't be a challenge if you didn't have obstacles in the way.) This is also why MMO's have added 10 men raids. This appeases to the smaller guilds...you might have to run more raids...but you CAN have the same gear as 20/25 men raids.

2.Players might have an edge in pvp. (good for them they worked their asses off to get the special gear, they should have an edge.) Maybe that gives an edge over those who exploit glitches and hack to win...come on we all know there are several in pvp...at least the ones with the gear advantage received their advantage fairly.

3. It takes too much time to raid...(again...risk/reward...if you don't want to raid...don't...that's why there are dungeons.)

4. Well I just think raiding would hurt the community...(so basically you are saying, "raiding would take core players away from helping me grind my dungeon") From what i understand...the argument is that there aren't many that would want to raid...so why are you scared of this taking players away from running dungeons?

5.Raids are just a clone, just another Wow. (There is a reason WoW is so successful and still is....and guess what they have RAIDS in their MMO).

These are the arguments presented by the "raid haters" which are very flawed arguments. Basically if you don't want to raid...don't. It's content that keeps those of us who want more of a challenge happy. If you are truly happy with the jumping puzzles, dungeons, and map exploration then it won't matter if a raid is added. I find the gear ladder fun, it gives me something to challenge myself on. The most fun I've had is experiences from raids...I mean omg...running to take down an avatar before the other guild could assemble on EQ2 was the bomb. I think there should be structured raiding and also event raid bosses that need an actual guild that is co-ordinated to take it down...not a damn zerg fest like it is now. The treasure sucks also...garbage rewards. Point being...the elite tier system is missing here...yeah dungeons are somewhat difficult until you get exotic gear then they are trivial at best. The rewards are ehhhh...ok. Raid dungeons and I think world Raid bosses that spawn should be added. I think they should also have a chance to drop legendary armor/weapons. For all of my elite brothers from the raid core...can I get an amen...to sign this petition to get ANet to actually bring raids to the elite!!! If players truly are your passion Anet...Bring this petition to the Devs!!!

[garrettstocke]

Though i agree and see where your coming from.. The GW2 approach is to be different then anything out there. To implement raids would mean to implement something GW2 has made clear will never be present in the game. A NEED for role diversity(AKA) the trinity. I think the "fun" of raiding is to have this diversity, CC, healers and DPS. But none of that is needed in GW2.

[penatbater]

There really is little use of raids when almost any class combination could work out in a dungeon run. The reason why 25-man raids work is because each are grouped up according to a specific role (you have your tanks, healers, dps, cc, etc) and to an extent they only function in that role. GW2 has a different trinity, no dedicated healers, so essentially it'll just be a big instanced DE.

Lastly, WoW indeed still is successful. But GW2 caters to a different market, a group that doesn't like wow/fed-up by wow's style. They probably won't state it out but there's this idea that they made GW2 for the casual player (see same-stat gear at max tier). GW2 tries to be different as well and provide a style of gameplay wherein the goal is not to rush to 80, but actually to enjoy every step of the way, no matter how slow/fast it is. There are MANY games out there that emulate the WoW playstyle, GW2 need not be another wow clone.

And if they were implemented, rewards from chest would suck as well. :P

[Vayne]

WoW is indeed successful, but that may or may not be because of raids. In fact, the percentage of people that enjoy raiding is far less than most raiders want to admit.

Also WoW and similar games funnel people into raiding, so people have gotten used to it, and expect it... but not everyone enjoys it. People who raid, often nag/bug people who don't to join their raids because they need more people. One of my sons used to guilt his brother into "helping" even though he didn't want to raid. It happens all the time, much in the same way that I used to be guilted into healing for a party when I didn't want to heal.

I get that you like raids and I get that you want them. Find a game that has them and play it. It's not going to happen here.3

[Izzy]

Ahem. Okay, I'm going to reply to each of your points the best I can and I apologize if I miss any.

OK...i've searched all over the internet to see if Anet has hinted at any possibilities in adding raids. I did see on one mmorpg site that they had a tab for "raids" for GW2. I'm hoping that's because they know something I don't. For more hardcore players, the game needs raids.

The game absolutely does not need raids to be successful or loved by "hardcore gamers". There are legendaries, dungeons, WvWvW, sPvP, etc. Not only that but the term "hardcore" in itself is not easily definable. Is playing the same game for more than 18 hours per day considered hardcore? Does one have to focus on maximum level, power, and gold to be hardcore? It seems to me that a lot of "hardcore gamers" miss out on what's truly important in the gaming world - having fun! They're all too busy trying to be 'the best' to smell the roses along the way, which in this game, is really half the game.

I believe that the best challenges are met by combining the teamwork of many players. Do I think that players should be rewarded by better gear? Hell yeah...that's part of the reward.

That's only true by personal opinion. A player can overcome challenges by themselves or in a team and I think it comes down to personal preference. Do players really want to be railed and forced into grouping with others, just so they can get the best loot? Maybe some, but others won't. Some people just like flying solo sometimes, or with one or two friends. They might not want a huge group they have to join, just to get lost in the crowd in a mad dash for better stuff.

This game is intentionally designed not to have required grind. That is why most of the "gear" in this game is driven by aesthetics, rather than stats. They don't want you to have to grind, just to keep up with the Joneses.

The main reward in any game should be fun. But this is where a lot of different players ideas of 'fun' start to collide. If you have fun grinding for stuff (hey, I'm not judgin'), then there are hundreds of MMOs out there waiting for you. Really honestly though, a lot of people that play Guild Wars 2 are looking for something different. We are tired of playing the same old thing, over and over again. Please don't think that this game needs to change, just because your ideals of what is 'fun' is are different than ours.

1.You have to have a collaberation of 10-25 people. (so ? That's part of the risk/reward...it wouldn't be a challenge if you didn't have obstacles in the way.) This is also why MMO's have added 10 men raids. This appeases to the smaller guilds...you might have to run more raids...but you CAN have the same gear as 20/25 men raids.

There are dragon fights and dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 that allow any number of people to be there at the same time. This is perfect for people who want to be in big crowds and kill things. It doesn't need to be organized either, just jump in and fight! Not only will you receive rewards at the end of a dynamic event, but you almost always get something useful. Whether it's karma, gold, or items you can use or sell.

Your second point goes back to the one I made about gear. Why would I ever want to run raid after raid after raid, just to get decent gear? I wouldn't. I want to focus on the gameplay and aesthetics, not fooling with stats. That's not fun to me.

I also wouldn't want to be in a large guild and get lost in the crowd. That's just not me, and why should I be gimped for it?

2.Players might have an edge in pvp. (good for them they worked their asses off to get the special gear, they should have an edge.) Maybe that gives an edge over those who exploit glitches and hack to win...come on we all know there are several in pvp...at least the ones with the gear advantage received their advantage fairly.

Grind should never equate to skill in my mind. How is doing the same thing you already know how to do over and over again helping you grow as a skilled player?

Think of it this way; If you were an aspiring chef and you cooked Mac 'n' Cheese everyday for the next two years, how is your journey to professional chef going? Not well! You have to learn to cook in variety and with spices if you want to be a great cook. Sure you can make some killer Mac 'n' Cheese, but that's all you can do. What happens when someone orders something fancy?

3. It takes too much time to raid...(again...risk/reward...if you don't want to raid...don't...that's why there are dungeons.)

Well, I'll give you this one. Players in an MMO should always have a choice. However, if raiding is the only way to obtain the 'best' gear, then this is as much of a choice as choosing not to show up at your court date.

4. Well I just think raiding would hurt the community...(so basically you are saying, "raiding would take core players away from helping me grind my dungeon") From what i understand...the argument is that there aren't many that would want to raid...so why are you scared of this taking players away from running dungeons?

Well to be honest I think there are a lot of players like yourself that would be interested in raiding. However, there are also many others that wouldn't. I don't think it would only marginally effect the amount of people participating in dungeon runs, but sometimes it is hard for me to find a group for certain dungeons. This could be due to my server and what the majority of people are focused on at the time, but still.

5.Raids are just a clone, just another Wow. (There is a reason WoW is so successful and still is....and guess what they have RAIDS in their MMO).

WoW is successful, that is undeniable. But the way you say this, it makes it sound the raids are the only reason WoW is successful. Surely there's more than one reason to play.

Raids have been around for quite a while, not just in WoW. In fact almost every MMO I've ever played has had some form of a raid in them. It's tiring. I never enjoyed them and probably never will. Does Guild Wars 2 really need to have raids? Can't we preserve this single game from having raids in it? Like I said earlier, there are plenty of other MMOs that have raids.

It's content that keeps those of us who want more of a challenge happy.

I agree that content keeps coming us back for more, particularly in a buy to play MMO. But new content in the form of raids? I would much rather see new dynamic events, armor skins, weapons, jumping puzzles, and all sorts of other stuff.

I find the gear ladder fun, it gives me something to challenge myself on. The most fun I've had is experiences from raids...I mean omg...running to take down an avatar before the other guild could assemble on EQ2 was the bomb.

Something must have drawn you into Guild Wars 2. You can either go back to what that was, or you can play the many, plentiful other games like WoW that feature raiding. Clearly your play style is what most other MMOs are designed for, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that a lot of us in the Guild Wars 2 community are tired of those traditions of grind and raids. We want something different and new and I don't see why we can't have that. Why bring raids over to this game when there are so many other games that are what you're looking for?

Bottom line is, ArenaNet can't cater to everyone. Someone is always going to be unhappy no matter what they do. The best they can do is follow their own vision and ideals and hope they gain fans in the process, which they have.

[Fey]

Not that I'm taking anyone's side. I would like to chime in and point out that dungeon content is extremely short-lived in this game. And that's a big problem, I think. When you have players that know what they're doing it's pretty much a zerg fest since everyone already knows how to avoid all the damage. Very shallow and easy with a huge grind attached.

Most people will say how hard and what a challenge they are, but in 6 months to a year from now when everyone across the game gets on our level and knows all the fights, it wont be pretty. Explorable groups are already starting to die out, it takes a lot longer to find groups than it did a month ago.

I don't want raids. But something as hard as a raid that requires as much or more coordination would help a lot.

[Vayne]

Not that I'm taking anyone's side. I would like to chime in and point out that dungeon content is extremely short-lived in this game. And that's a big problem, I think. When you have players that know what they're doing it's pretty much a zerg fest since everyone already knows how to avoid all the damage. Very shallow and easy with a huge grind attached.

Most people will say how hard and what a challenge they are, but in 6 months to a year from now when everyone across the game gets on our level and knows all the fights, it wont be pretty. Explorable groups are already starting to die out, it takes a lot longer to find groups than it did a month ago.

I don't want raids. But something as hard as a raid that requires as much or more coordination would help a lot.

I don't know if it'll be much more difficult, but I do know that 6 months to a year from now there'll likely be a lot more content, including dungeons.

I don't farm dungeons, so I find them quite challenging. But dungeons in other games are quite central to the game, and I feel dungeons in Guild Wars 2 are quite separate. Like you only really ever have to do a single dungeon to complete your personal story, where as to do the main quest line in Rift you have to complete every dungeon. it's a different mind set.

Dungeons, to me, are always afterthoughts or add ons. A lot of people in my guild aren't even interested in the dungeons, even though I admit, many people love dungeons.

Anyway I suspect there'll be a lot more content as time goes on, including new dungeons. But I don't know if they'll be any harder.

[Fey]

Yeah they just don't have any longevity as content. I mean, you could farm them for all the sets but there's no reason to. Especially since it's faster to just craft or farm for gold or even just convert gems to gold if you're loaded.

I think the one thing they could take from WoW would be achievements for explorable modes. Beat each boss a certain way or without something specific happening and get a really cool reward. Maybe a choice of weapon skins since there's no mounts or something similar. Give us a reason to actually keep doing them and improve other than just "Go in, zerg everything, get tokens, leave".

[Vayne]

I agree with that. They made a start with the boss achievements, but I think there should be titles as well, including titles like beating a certain boss without being downed, or something like that.

This game would benefit from more titles, anyway. It's another way for elite players to show their prowess.

[Fey]

I actually really like how you have to click on a person to see if they have a title and that it's not just shoved in your face.

"Super-Mega-Awesome Destroyer of All Evil Sephiroth827367"