Raids

[hlindegar]

I actually love raiding, and I loved WoW. I was a guild leader and my guild raided throughout the WotLK expansion. It was frustrating as hell, but we became RL friends over time, and it was also a great gaming experience. Being really frustrated and then eventually succeeding is what gaming is all about for me.

I quit WoW, then 2 years later got GW2, because I was basically raiding too much and it was messing up real life, but I found that GW2 was "safe" because it didn't have raids. The addition of raids to GW2 would be great, but I'd probably have to quit before getting addicted. We need at least 1 "safe" MMO out there, and it still needs to be fun. GW2 is that game!

I suppose anyone can say "well really that's your problem" and I suppose you'd be right. I agree with Vayne that the game culture can be the developer's fault, but I would not extend that and say that addiction is the developer's fault.

[TitanBlade]

Bitter about what exactly? That's a strange thing to say. I don't like big business in general or their practices. Is that bitter, or is it just seeing too many get away with too much for too long?

I don't raid, because I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding takes the emphasis off the world and puts it into the instance, it takes it off living in the world and puts it on mechanics.

Stating that raids have taken the RPG out of MMORPGS isnt' bitter, it's just an observation.

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It would be simple of the game were designed different, but have you tested it without a trinity? I bet Anet has.

Im guessing by the way you describe your play, you role play, and sink yourself into the online world for the Lore and Social aspects... Which is your choice.

However whenever someone describes raids as forcing people into content etc as you did, it screams to me that maybe you are just not very good at the more skill based part of online games?

Have you had bad experiences that have influenced your dislike of raiding?

And if your son is "guilt tripped" into raiding, sure that is the fault of the individual for just saying "No"

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I actually love raiding, and I loved WoW. I was a guild leader and my guild raided throughout the WotLK expansion. It was frustrating as hell, but we became RL friends over time, and it was also a great gaming experience. Being really frustrated and then eventually succeeding is what gaming is all about for me.

I quit WoW, then 2 years later got GW2, because I was basically raiding too much and it was messing up real life, but I found that GW2 was "safe" because it didn't have raids. The addition of raids to GW2 would be great, but I'd probably have to quit before getting addicted. We need at least 1 "safe" MMO out there, and it still needs to be fun. GW2 is that game!

I suppose anyone can say "well really that's your problem" and I suppose you'd be right. I agree with Vayne that the game culture can be the developer's fault, but I would not extend that and say that addiction is the developer's fault.

Being addicted to the Game is your fault, not the developers.

If you cant moderate a game around your own life then you should definately stay away from all games full stop, or at least MMO's.

[Vayne]

I actually love raiding, and I loved WoW. I was a guild leader and my guild raided throughout the WotLK expansion. It was frustrating as hell, but we became RL friends over time, and it was also a great gaming experience. Being really frustrated and then eventually succeeding is what gaming is all about for me.

I quit WoW, then 2 years later got GW2, because I was basically raiding too much and it was messing up real life, but I found that GW2 was "safe" because it didn't have raids. The addition of raids to GW2 would be great, but I'd probably have to quit before getting addicted. We need at least 1 "safe" MMO out there, and it still needs to be fun. GW2 is that game!

I suppose anyone can say "well really that's your problem" and I suppose you'd be right. I agree with Vayne that the game culture can be the developer's fault, but I would not extend that and say that addiction is the developer's fault.

It's like saying cigarette companies have no responsibility for addicting people to cigarettes. As long as they find ways to advertise, they're pushing smoking on impressionable teens, mostly. It's the same thing. A lot of people who play games are adults and should be responsible for themselves (not that an adult can't become compulsive. But when you target kids and sorta guide them to be addicted to something, well, that's pretty much where I draw the line.

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Im guessing by the way you describe your play, you role play, and sink yourself into the online world for the Lore and Social aspects... Which is your choice.

However whenever someone describes raids as forcing people into content etc as you did, it screams to me that maybe you are just not very good at the more skill based part of online games?

Have you had bad experiences that have influenced your dislike of raiding?

And if your son is "guilt tripped" into raiding, sure that is the fault of the individual for just saying "No"

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Being addicted to the Game is your fault, not the developers.

If you cant moderate a game around your own life then you should definately stay away from all games full stop, or at least MMO's.

I'm plenty skillful. I get through content fine. I beat dungeons and yes, I can raid. I don't enjoy raiding. There's a difference. Hell my wife can raid and has. She didn't enjoy it either.

It doesn't mean she's not good at it. It means she doesn't like it. I'm also good at hopscotch and house cleaning, but I don't like that either.

[TitanBlade]

It's like saying cigarette companies have no responsibility for addicting people to cigarettes. As long as they find ways to advertise, they're pushing smoking on impressionable teens, mostly. It's the same thing. A lot of people who play games are adults and should be responsible for themselves (not that an adult can't become compulsive. But when you target kids and sorta guide them to be addicted to something, well, that's pretty much where I draw the line.

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I'm plenty skillful. I get through content fine. I beat dungeons and yes, I can raid. I don't enjoy raiding. There's a difference. Hell my wife can raid and has. She didn't enjoy it either.

It doesn't mean she's not good at it. It means she doesn't like it. I'm also good at hopscotch and house cleaning, but I don't like that either.

Unfortunately your probably the minority on this one.

I just don't see how a game without a competitive PVE offering will survive/grow.

[mayito7777]

Unfortunately your probably the minority on this one.

I just don't see how a game without a competitive PVE offering will survive/grow.

It will not survive. Sooner or later the devs will realize that and will change their mind when their bank accounts start to dry out.

[Bell]

Unfortunately your probably the minority on this one.

I just don't see how a game without a competitive PVE offering will survive/grow.

What I don't really get is the equation competitive PVE = raid. (What's competitive PVE for you btw.? Do you mean competing for World firsts with other guilds, because I can't see anything too competitive in normal raiding in WoW or other games)

Why is that so? The only real difference between a dungeon and a raid is the amount of people you need to complete them. So it might be more difficult for the leader of such a group to coordinate a raidgrp, but for everyone else it's pretty much the same: getting to know the boss' mechanics and then fulfilling your role's part in beating that mechanic. That can be achieved in a 5 man environment as well as in a 40 man environment. (In WoW most Raidbosses have vaster, more crafty mechanics and more phases than say 5 man heroic bosses, but that's only a design decision and could easily be altered)

I'm not going to argue wheter the PVE content in GW 2 being too easy or too difficult; I haven't tried enough of it yet to make that decision. I just don't see what the size of a group has to do with content difficulty for anybody else than maybe the teamleader. You could make a 40 man dungeon as easy as Ragefire and on the other hand you could've made any 5 man fight as difficult as the hardest raidencounter you can think of.

In fact most of my friends who raid stated that 10 man raids were much harder to accomplish than the old 40 man raids, because if one out of 40 screwed up you probably weren't fucked, but you sure were when one out of 10 screwed up. Therefore I don't really think that raids per se are a necessity to have competitive PVE.

But I also don't really think that competitive PVE really is a major focus of ANet; Otherwise I guess it wouldn't be possible to graveyard-zerg bosses on exploration mode. If this is a good or a bad decision for the game as a whole, only time will tell.

[Vayne]

Unfortunately your probably the minority on this one.

I just don't see how a game without a competitive PVE offering will survive/grow.

Based on what? Your opinion. You know, people still buy solitaire and that has no PvP at all. I don't see much competitiveness in Skyrim or Oblivion and people still play both of those games. And if content came out fast and furious those games would have more players than even now.

I get that you're a competitive person and you think competition is very cool. And that's all very nice and good.

But that doesn't mean everyone, or even most people are competitive.

Are there more wolves or more sheep? Are the more leaders or followers? Are there more alpha males or betas? There's always going to be fewer ultra-competitive people than there are people who just want to hang out and have fun. This probably disturbs you, but doesn't make it any less true.

The fact is, you have no evidence at all to back up your statement. It's another opinion. If competition is what kept Guild Wars 1 going as long as it has, then Anet would have come out with more PvP options and less fun/story options in their later expansions.

[Fey]

Bitter about what exactly? That's a strange thing to say. I don't like big business in general or their practices. Is that bitter, or is it just seeing too many get away with too much for too long?

I don't raid, because I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding takes the emphasis off the world and puts it into the instance, it takes it off living in the world and puts it on mechanics.

Stating that raids have taken the RPG out of MMORPGS isnt' bitter, it's just an observation.

Actually, when WoW first came out it was praised by putting the "RPG" back into MMORPG's. It had quests with story lines and intricate lore and plots that were very interesting. Instead of grinding for hours on end to level quests were actually important and gave rewards unlike most games before it.

You really don't seem to know what you're talking about :x

[fireflyry]

Why are people so against raids in this thread? It's simple, add like a 10-20 man raid and give it tokens like all dungeons and a vendor, that would have cool looking armor with the same stats as everything else. Simple as that.
There would be small things to change around such as lock outs and if it should have it or not. It means you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

This.

I'd have no issues with this.Especially when I'd assume under 5% of the player base would even bother.Thing is it should be a game-play option.I don't think anyone takes issue with that.

It should also never be based on rewards/skins that are superior to just playing the game without raids.The rewards given should never be more attractive than playing the game normally, in fact they should be sub-par.If raiding ever became the best way to get the "cool shit" this game would die.Period.

As I stated earlier I still think this mechanic is viable in GW but I also think while it's entertaining to discuss it is pure hypothesis.It won't ever happen.

[Vayne]

Actually, when WoW first came out it was praised by putting the "RPG" back into MMORPG's. It had quests with story lines and intricate lore and plots that were very interesting. Instead of grinding for hours on end to level quests were actually important and gave rewards unlike most games before it.

You really don't seem to know what you're talking about :x

I don't really care what WoW was when it came out, because it's become something else, and that's what I don't like. What I don't like even more is that due to its success it got copied again and again and again.

What difference in the world could what people said about WoW 7 years ago, have on a genre that many feel has lost it's way?

I don't know what I'm talking about because I have an opinion? I think I'm just as qualified to talk about RPGs as you are.