Raids

[hlindegar]

GW2 doesn't do a very good job of sucking you into the lore. I don't ever skip the cut scenes since I am trying to follow the story line but watching two people talk to each other gets pretty boring and half the time I zone out.

Yep. It is by far the one weakness of this game. I'm a lore nut. I always get into the lore of every game... heck I even got into the back story for Infamous (PS3), lol. But the Guild Wars universe still has some of the most mediocre lore I've seen. I've even read the novels and the wikis. I know the lore and I'm still not that interested.

As I said before though, I still love the game and am not quitting anytime soon.

[justthedrummer]

You said raiding was like WvW, which it isn't at all, so I'm not sure what to say about that. I've done plenty of both, and they are both great, but they just aren't similar at all. I do agree with you on the point that raiding should NOT reward players with better gear though.

There, I commented on your post!

I did not say it was the same. I said it solved all the complaints that ppl had about raiding and that it was ultimately better, but still had the raiding feel that the WoW people want.

[Vayne]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying that story doesn't have a place. I'm saying the players don't play MMO's for story. They play RPGs for those.

The most common thing you'll hear from a veteran MMO player, regardless of what MMO's they play, is that their first MMO: They read everything. All of the quests, all of the story, everything NPC's have to say. All of it. Then they move onto the next one and realize it's more of the same. Even GW2 has the same basic quests that I've seen in every MMO. Because they're all so similar, it makes it harder to sell that aspect of an MMO to people and even more so; to keep them playing after they've experienced that story.

With single player RPGs it's different. When I want to explore and have a completely free-formed experience with no barriers or restrictions, I play Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion, Fall Out 3. When I want a straight forward story experience, I play Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts. When I want a free-formed story where my choices change each playthrough, I play Mass Effect, Chrono Trigger, Heavy Rain, etc.

Do you see the issue? All of those titles offer their own unique experiences along with a well told story. MMO's do NOT supply this. Period. They have to focus on such a wide demographic that each area has less emphasis, and Story is the first thing that's usually cut. Even in GW2, there's a lot less emphasis than there could be. It's just too hard to please everyone in an MMO so they please as many people as possible.

I see that you say that most players skip it, but I'm not sure that's true. Do most solo player's skip it? Remember, I think there are more solo players out there than most people think. I also think there are more immersion players. But I also think those guys don't speak up, because they solo. They're not usually here on forums. They're not usually in guilds even, so how can anyone truthfully say what percentage of people follow story and what percentage skip it?

[Vayne]

Ok something has certainly gone awry. I like GW2 better than WoW, as most of us do, and I defend it when it is attacked all the time. But to say the GW2 has even close to the amount of story as WoW is a joke. WoW has far more lore, and it is all over the place. The quests, the dungeons, the secrets throughout the world, the old god / HP Lovecraft element that just adds more mystery to the lore. WoW is king of lore, no question. As crappy as a game it is, and as wonderful as a game GW2 is, that is the area where WoW wins.

Have you read the novels? I've read 4 WoW novels and both GW2 novels. WoW has more lore and back story than Lord of the Rings, no question. It has more lore and history than ANYTHING out there. Again, I'm not a WoW-fanboy, but if you're talking lore, WoW trumps everything.

I can't disagree with this, but I can say that there's a major difference between lore and story, and while WoW has a lot of lore, it didn't have the story, at least not for me. Much like Rift, which had some story but it all seemed to be an excuse to have factions beating each other up (and it was mostly stolen from Aion anyway, they didn't even both to change the name of the "good guys" capitol city lol).

I'm more into story than lore, though I enjoy lore as well. What I keep saying is that I need my character to be motivated. Tombraider was more fun for me than WoW, because I understood why I was doing what I was doing. There was no lore to speak of, but there was motivation. My character was motivated, not me. That's the difference.

Guild Wars 1 doesn't have as much lore as WoW, but it has a whole lot more story. Even Rift had more story that WoW. It started me off in a war zone that I had to fight my way through that was the starting area. That kind of throwing you into a story is talked about all the time by writers, if you've ever taken a fiction writing course. Start on action. Pull the people in.

It's all great and nice to have a vast lore base to draw upon but it doesn't solve my problem with WoW at all, not even a little. I was 30th level wandering around following stars, having read every single quest, and I was only doing to for experience and gold. I had no interest at all in what I was doing as a character.

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Im not even disagreeing with Vayne but man you come off as somebody that needs to right all the time. Not in a malicious way, but I can see how some people get a little frustrated by that posting style...and this is from somebody that generally agrees with you.

I have strong opinions and I defend them, sure. I've also admitted where other people were right, though people might overlook it, because I'm focusing on something different, like that old elementalist thread. A lot of times I'm complaining less about what people are saying and more about how they phrase it to make it sound like it's worse than it is. When people use hyperbole to make a point, I'll always chime in.

And you know, it's okay if people get frustrated by what I say. I'm not running any popularity content. Everyone on these forums that has strong opinions pisses other people off in how they say things. Some are more dismissive, some are more directly offensive, some just enjoy a debate.

I'm not thinking I'm going to change very soon, being that I've been this way all my life, but you can see this as a character flaw or you can see it as a strength. It's probably somewhere in between. lol

[Vayne]

I'm wondering how many people who are saying Guild Wars 2 has the weakest lore, are actually people who have extensively played Guild Wars 1. I'm curious because I was a long time Guild Wars 1 player and was already invested in the lore and story, before I ever came to Guild Wars 2.

There are things lore/story wise that Guild Wars 1 players will get/see/notice that Guild Wars 2 players who never played the first game will notice. Anton's grave, for example, is just something to click on for people who didn't play Eye of the North. Captain Greywind's grave too. Even towns like seeing the Ascalon Settlement and how it's grown. Swimming around ruins of the Temple of Ages or old Lion's Arch and waiting on the steps where you used to purchase skills.

There are tons of things that are interesting lore wise in this game, so here's a question for the long time WoW players.

If you bought WoW in only the last expansion, how much lore and story would you be actually getting?

Because Guild Wars and WoW are both about 7 years old. And when WoW launched, Warcraft had already been around for a long time, where as Guild Wars was a new product.

But Guild Wars had four releases and a historical mission pack that most people here have barely touched.

So again, how much can the game really do to get you into the lore? How intrusive would it be for them to try? This is a problem every writer of a series faces when they start a new book after a period of time. How much backstory can you give without pissing off the previous readers.

Those who really didn't play Guild Wars 1 and get that lore, have no way to judge how much lore there is, any more than a WoW player who bought Mists of Pandaria would know the lore or story that's floating around WoW for a much longer period of time.

[Steel Singer]

I see that you say that most players skip it, but I'm not sure that's true. Do most solo player's skip it? Remember, I think there are more solo players out there than most people think. I also think there are more immersion players. But I also think those guys don't speak up, because they solo. They're not usually here on forums. They're not usually in guilds even, so how can anyone truthfully say what percentage of people follow story and what percentage skip it?

I consider myself mainly a solo player in pve and on my first lvl 80 I watched all the cutscenes. But now at my second character I usually skill all the super boring and stale talking. It's basically pretty much the same the further you go in the story. Sure the vigil and whisperers do stuff a tiny bit different, but a lot is exactly the same.

I find this strange as I played Dragon Age: Origins with at least 4 characters from start to end. It still doesn't bore me, I think that if I install it again I could easily play it trough again. Even on the hardest difficulty.

Point is, the two characters, standing still and not moving at all in the cutscenes. That's incredibly boring, also because some of the voices are retarded. Why do we always have Trahearne around, that is the most dull NPC that I've ever seen in any RPG. Seriously wtf, I don't want his boring ass with me. But I don't even have a choice in that, where is my PERSONALIZED story Anet????

[Vayne]

I consider myself mainly a solo player in pve and on my first lvl 80 I watched all the cutscenes. But now at my second character I usually skill all the super boring and stale talking. It's basically pretty much the same the further you go in the story. Sure the vigil and whisperers do stuff a tiny bit different, but a lot is exactly the same.

I find this strange as I played Dragon Age: Origins with at least 4 characters from start to end. It still doesn't bore me, I think that if I install it again I could easily play it trough again. Even on the hardest difficulty.

Point is, the two characters, standing still and not moving at all in the cutscenes. That's incredibly boring, also because some of the voices are retarded. Why do we always have Trahearne around, that is the most dull NPC that I've ever seen in any RPG. Seriously wtf, I don't want his boring ass with me. But I don't even have a choice in that, where is my PERSONALIZED story Anet????

I'm not even sure why you still play this game. Seems to me, I pretty much see nothing but a string of complaints. I'm not particularly bored with the story and I delight in some of the little differences that appear in them. This could be because I started gaming before you were born and I'm more used to games that have cut scenes like this.

The thing about great cinematic cut scenes in some games is that I feel more like I'm watching a movie than playing a game, and they actually take me out of the game, particularly if they're too frequent. When I tried a demo of Dragon Age 2 that was a problem for me (though I liked Dragon Age a lot).

So I guess this comes down to a matter of personal taste.

[Fey]

I see that you say that most players skip it, but I'm not sure that's true. Do most solo player's skip it? Remember, I think there are more solo players out there than most people think. I also think there are more immersion players. But I also think those guys don't speak up, because they solo. They're not usually here on forums. They're not usually in guilds even, so how can anyone truthfully say what percentage of people follow story and what percentage skip it?

You can just look at people in game and see it for yourself. Mobs of people that stick around for one part of a DE quest chain and then leave without seeing the rest. It's the same as skipping quest text in any other MMO. Even in SWTOR, more often than not, people just space-barred through a lot of the dialog unless it was their personal story.

[Jim Hunter]

I'm not even sure why you still play this game. Seems to me, I pretty much see nothing but a string of complaints. I'm not particularly bored with the study and I delight in some of the little differences that appear in them. This could be because I started gaming before you were born and I'm more used to games that have cut scenes like this.

The thing about great cinematic cut scenes in some games is that I feel more like I'm watching a movie than playing a game, and they actually take me out of the game, particularly if they're too frequent. When I tried a demo of Dragon Age 2 that was a problem for me (though I liked Dragon Age a lot).

So I guess this comes down to a matter of personal taste.

I'm the opposite. As long as the cinematics included my character I felt more drawn into the story.
The way they are now is completely disengaging especially because it removes my head gear and a lot of the voices really don't fit my characters. Even the norn story line which I find pretty entertaining tends to lose me because the way it is presented is boring.

[Jim Hunter]

I did not say it was the same. I said it solved all the complaints that ppl had about raiding and that it was ultimately better, but still had the raiding feel that the WoW people want.

While I agree WvW is definitely better I don't agree that it has the same raiding feel to it. It might feel a little similar to the first time you go through a raid but when you're doing the same raid over and over you are not running into anything new and unexpected.

WvW and pvp is for people that like being thrown into something chaotic where you have to think on your feet. Raiding is for people that like to fine tune something that's familiar, their challenge is more along the lines of can I beat my best time or run this with more dps and one less tank.