ArenaNet: Linsey Murdock unveils High End Ascended Gear (2012-11-13)

[Centaur]

Yesterday the german community manager Ramon Domke replied to a couple of questions on the german forum. I tried to translate his reply as well as I could:

OK, I have decided to answer some of the questions here. Please don't put every single word on the scale again or dig into every single detail - in the end, the only thing that will provide absolute certainty, is the update, and the retrospective view a couple of weeks after the update. Before that there will always be questions or this "fundamental uncertainty".

1. If there is "no item treadmill" then is, with the "Ascended" items, with 100% certainty the maximum reached, or will the whole thing start again all over again in a year or two?

We simply cannot give you a percentage. You saw how an old announcement about Exotic/Legendary weapons was treated "But back then you said..." - so if I tell you that with 100% certainty there will never be anything higher, that would not be helpful. Even if in e.g. Guild Wars 1 we never made any substantial changes, there were still green items (also in later chapters) which enabled weapon combinations that simply were not achievable in the Prophecies times (15-staff of energy for example), and still it wasn't a gear treadmill.

2. What will happen to the gear from the other dungeons? Will they be upgraded later or are they (and thus the dungeon) suddenly outdated?

As can also be read in Chris Whitesides statement, we will make adjustments so that they apply to both new and existing content. No, existing dungeons will not become obsolete because of the new items. And this applies not only to the unique nature of the exotic armor designs that can only be obtained in these particular dungeons.

3. What happens to crafted equipment? Is all the effort that we spent on crafting for naught? (if I had known right from the start that Exotics would suddenly not be the maximum stats anymore, I would have saved a lot of time and money and just kept my Rare requipment).

That's what Chris meant by "new features" affecting "current content". We also look at the crafting professions (possibly not immediately in this update - that would be specifically Jewelers here), but crafting is definitely an important core concept of the game as well and should not stay out of this.

4. The statement was "the community wants progression, so she gets it" (simplified). If that was the motivation for the Ascended items, what happens when "the community" is finished with this progression? (follows up on #1)

That's why we do not speak of gear progression, but of features that enable a progression, without constantly requiring the introduction of a new tier of items. The new "Agony" condition in the "Fractals of the Mist" dungeon is such a possible progression. That dungeon has no end! However, it becomes increasingly more difficult. Through the 'agony' we introduce a hurdle in this dungeon, that you have to overcome either by skilled play or with the right gear - or later with both - to move forward. The whole dungeon is designed to offer you something where you, as a trained team, can see "how far you can get" without it being the goal "to complete the dungeon".

5. In Chris's statement there was something along the lines of "we want to close the gap between Exotic and Legendary". My question is, what gap? Exotic and Legendary were equal in stats, the difference was only the time invested. If the "wall" is only time spent, then why raise the stats?

The gap is indeed the time, or the method of acquisition. For many players, Exotic gear is a short-term to mid-term goal. And the Legendary gear is intended as long-term goal (but we have found out that player absolutely want to get their "Legendary" as fast as possible - that's why we are making changes in this area). So after this change we will have the Exotic gear as short-term (direct) goal, the Ascended gear as mid-term goal (on the side, as it's not available as a complete set right from the start) and the Legendary gear as long term career goal for your hero. You can have different opinions on the raising of the stats - as you are actively discussing here, and we are well aware of that. But I hope that you realize, that the "Fractals of the Mist" and the Ascended gear make sense as matching mechanics.

6. What happens to the Triforge Pendant / What happens with the Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald pendants?

They will still have their niche - and possibly provide better services than the objects with infusion slots initially will. But especially in the "Agony" field they will increasingly lose importance. Please note that also in Guild Wars 1 there were regularly objects that were extremely sought after and expensive for a certain period of time, but then eventually lost their value because of an update. Victo's Bulwark for example is one of these items, the old 20/20 Rockmolder is another. This will always happen in MMO's - with or without gear progression - and it's a normal process. Even in Guild Wars 1 - despite the lack of gear progression - players would not always stick to the same set of equipment that they had once collected at the beginning (even if the system made it easier for them), and even there that was not (always) because of the appearance, but because of minor value adjustments or combinations that would benefit a certain build (for example Deeproot's Sorrow for the Illusion Mesmer).

Although it doesn't really make all this sound any better for me, it might make a difference for someone...

[Vayne]

I'm going to try to find a different way to explain what I feel about this, because I haven't found it so far. The only game I can really reference for this, besides Guild Wars 2, is Rift, because it's a game that I left for some of the very reasons people are quoting here. I felt that the company had gone back on its word.

Rift promised an open world game, and ended up being a dungeon grind. That is to say, the rewards for doing in world content weren't there at all. Exploration wasn't rewarded, planarite, the currrency you got from rifts was completely worthless, crafting was completely silly....and because you needed people to participate in zone events, and most people weren't, it was simply impossible to do anything when I left but run dungeons to prepare for raids and then raid.

In Guild Wars 2, even with the changes being proposed, there's nothing to stop me and a couple of friends from enjoying what is a much larger world, filled with dynamic events that I find enjoyable and rewarding. When I left Rift the same thing wasn't possible. I mean sure, I could run around in the world, but it wasn't rewarding.

There difference between what Anet is doing is what Rift did at that time (it may have since changed) is a matter of angle. If you look at it from one direction, what Anet is doing looks the same. The difference for me is that in Rift the world really did become obsolete, but in Guild Wars 2, for me and others like me, that's not the case. People can do these dungeons and if I never set foot in one, it won't affect my enjoyment of the world.

I don't believe Anet is going to come out with new updated gear every three months that you have to keep working for. I believe Anet does need short, medium and long term goals for end game players and what was missing were the medium goals.

Exotic gear is relatively easy to attain. Legendary weapons are really beyond what most casual players are ever going to attain. But there was nothing at all between them. You had your exotics and that was it.

Those who wanted some progression, but couldn't ever expect to get a legendary weapon had nowhere to go. So Anet saw this thing missing and added it, and yes, it's a change.

Is this something they're going to keep doing? Are they going to keep adding new levels and new gear. I don't suspect they will. They're adding this because it was missing and they didn't realize it was needed.

Now you can argue it wouldn't have been needed if the legendary weapons had kept the same specs as the exotics, and for a certain percentage of the players you'd be right, but what percentage is the question. I think because the legendaries were so hard to get, making them a bit more powerful isn't really going to be a big deal, because you won't need legendaries to beat content. If you did, that would be the difference.

Right now, I can continue on with my exotic gear and still do everything I want, including WvW. In other games, it just doesn't work that way.

Of course, the one exception to this whole thing is the new dungeon, which requires infusion, but it's self-contained. If that, however, were to leak out into the world, if suddenly world bosses required infusion to beat, or you needed infusion to win in WvW, that would be more like what gear grind is in other games.

[Centaur]

Vayne, look at it this way... a lot of people are already complaining that most of the scaled down content lacks challenge. If you're level 80 in full exotic gear with full skills, doing level 60 stuff is extremely easy.
Once they have released the full set of ascended gear with increased stats on every single item, even the current level 80 stuff will become much less challenging. So they will either need to increase the difficulty of all the content that is currently in the game, or a lot of people will simply stop playing it for lack of challenge (as we can already see happening in most of the lower level zones once people reach level 80 and have 100% world completion). Tweaking the sidekicking is one thing, but increasing the difficulty of the level 80 stuff because it has become too easy with full ascended gear, will mean that it becomes that much more challenging to do that same content with exotic gear. To some this additional challenge will be great, to others this will mean they will feel forced to get ascended gear to do any of the level 80 stuff.

[Vayne]

Vayne, look at it this way... a lot of people are already complaining that most of the scaled down content lacks challenge. If you're level 80 in full exotic gear with full skills, doing level 60 stuff is extremely easy.
Once they have released the full set of ascended gear with increased stats on every single item, even the current level 80 stuff will become much less challenging. So they will either need to increase the difficulty of all the content that is currently in the game, or a lot of people will simply stop playing it for lack of challenge (as we can already see happening in most of the lower level zones once people reach level 80 and have 100% world completion). Tweaking the sidekicking is one thing, but increasing the difficulty of the level 80 stuff because it has become too easy with full ascended gear, will mean that it becomes that much more challenging to do that same content with exotic gear. To some this additional challenge will be great, to others this will mean they will feel forced to get ascended gear to do any of the level 80 stuff.

But stuff like this is adjusted in games all the time. I get the theory. Think about Guild Wars 1 for a moment.

Didn't that game get easier and easier? Wasn't Prophecies much easier with heroes and EotN skills. Technobabble and Pain Inverter alone made it a different game. And then came the rit update.

The PVe in Guild Wars 1 got laughably easy, but people still played it. I still played it, and yes, I didn't do many elite instances, only rarely. Because I wasn't playing the game for a challenge. I played the game for other reasons.

I don't really believe PVe players in Guild Wars 1 continued to play that game for challenge. Farming runs were so fast, it was silly. Rits could solo farm the underworld.

So if you're looking at what Anet has done in the past, you're looking at it now. Sure DOA was tough, and sure I beat it, but I didn't hang around spamming LF imbagon in the Gate of Anguish. I didn't farm voltaic spears. That wasn't my game. Nor did I PvP. Was the PVe game easy? Sure it was. But I had fun, hanging with the guild, doing instances we'd done a bunch of times, farming the few achievements and titles I didn't have.

What the hell was so challenging about Guild Wars 1 at the end, that this is any different?

The trick is to make challenging instances for those who want to challenge themselves and have a casual game for the rest of us.

Rifts problem for me was they didn't care about explorers or immersion players. There was no exploration to speak of. There was nothing that interesting. It was very generic. Hell there wasn't even a city in the proper sense of the word. Even the capitals were like glorified quest hubs. So that game didn't interest me long term.

This game, as long as they keep adding stuff for me to do, as long as I keep having fun, as long as I'm in a guild with great people, I'll do the occasional challenge, but mostly I'll enjoy the world. I'll do what I did in Guild War 1. Look forward to the content updates, the holiday celebrations, try to score me a few new minipets, and have a good time.

[Centaur]

Yes, GW1 became way too easy, and ArenaNet were well aware of that. The problem with GW1 was, (mainly) due to the dual profession system, balancing and tweaking was a nightmare... so ArenaNet rarely did. They apparently solved that problem in GW2, so I absolutely expect balancing and tweaking updates on a much more regular scale.

If this game does indeed turn into GW1-style easy for normal players and challenging only for those who stick with the gear progression for the newly added content, then all the more reason for me to get off this train now.

[Vayne]

Yes, GW1 became way too easy, and ArenaNet were well aware of that. The problem with GW1 was, (mainly) due to the dual profession system, balancing and tweaking was a nightmare... so ArenaNet rarely did. They apparently solved that problem in GW2, so I absolutely expect balancing and tweaking updates on a much more regular scale.

If this game does indeed turn into GW1-style easy for normal players and challenging only for those who stick with the gear progression for the newly added content, then all the more reason for me to get off this train now.

Well, this is the problem isn't it. Most players who play MMOs aren't hard core, they're casual. They need stuff to do. Hard core players, they need stuff to do. So both things have to be offered, because you can't have a game without giving stuff for casuals and you can't have challenge on most things, because you'll lose the casuals. The trick is to get the balance right.

Those who PvP can make their own challenges, by playing more talented people, but those who PVe there needs to be a range of things to do, at different levels of challenge. Guild Wars 1 sorta offered that until that one rit update, when it all fell apart. Signet of Spirits was too powerful and people loved it...even though it made the game easy.

In fact, hasn't history shown over and over again that there's a healthy percentage of people looking for the easy road and if you give it to them they'll take it?

That doesn't mean the game is going to become a gear grind. I truly believe that's in your head. But it's a great excuse for people like me to get better at playing. As I learn and play the game, it gets easier and easier, so if the balance the game for the higher gear (and it's not that much higher) as more players get it, it will give me just enough challenge to keep me interested.

You're threatening to leave because you feel Anet lied to you. But telling you something and having to change it when they see the lay of the land isn't quite the same thing as a lie. Do you really think they had all this planned all along and they never mentioned anything because they wanted to con the original players. I don't.

I think they wanted to do it their way, they have a pretty big overhead now, their staff being five times the size of Guild Wars 1, they realized they have to keep people in game, and they need to offer a variety of experiences to do this, including experiences that some of us don't want in there. I'm sure they're not rubbing their hands together with glee that they fooled us loyal fans. That's not what's happening here.

They're trying to get it right and they're iterating on the fly and some of this stuff will be good and some of it will suck ass. That's just how the game works. The stuff that sucks will be changed, unless the bulk of the fan base likes it. If the bulk of the fan base likes it, what can I do about it?

The fact is, you're leaving because you wanted Anet to uphold their principles no matter what they saw happening. And I'm sure that if they felt the game as it stood in the direction they were going was viable, they'd have kept going that way.

But sometimes reality gets in the way of dreams. That was how it was for me, and that's why I left my writing career when I did. The stuff I wanted to write, that I was proud of wasn't paying bills, so I had to write other stuff that I didn't want to write, that I wasn't proud of, just to pay the bills. Did I intend to do that when I set out? Of course not..but that's what my career became and frankly it sucked...which is why I walked away.

Anet made some changes that some of the people who expected differently really don't like. I get that and I even respect that, but realistically I'm not so sure they had the choice you think they had.

[Lagger]

I'm disappointed by the reply of that german community manager. He basically took no stance whatsoever and I'm afraid ANet still hasn't understood what the problem with crafting is. One little remark, tho... I'm going to enjoy reading the forum once players finish that supposedly unfinishable dungeon. I'll give it... hmm, half a week, a week tops.

[Centaur]

The fact is, you're leaving because you wanted Anet to uphold their principles no matter what they saw happening.

I've stopped playing (I'm not threatening to stop... I already did) because the game is changing into something complete different than what I signed up for, and because most of the issues that I see with this game, aren't being addressed (or the solutions that ArenaNet is coming with, are only making the issues bigger in my opinion). ArenaNet has made it clear from the very start what direction they wanted the game to go into, and which things they would and wouldn't do. And they attracted a lot of new (casual) players because of that. Then ArenaNet panicked when a large group of players who were used to the WoW-mentality of endgame, rushed through their content and left the game again. So now they are throwing it all around, throwing their original principles overboard, and are creating a completely different game. And the direction they are heading in now, just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I'd much rather go back to playing single player RPG's, possibly waiting for a game like Elder Scrolls Online (if that's any good) than continuing to spend my time doing endgame that I don't enjoy. Be honest, if ArenaNet came to the realization that there was way too little interest in exploring, and that a lot of people actually want open world pvp instead, and if they added open world pvp to all the PvE zones to draw in more people, would you still have just as much fun and defend ArenaNet for just "doing what's best for the game and the company"? Because with how empty most of the PvE zones are right now, that might well be a way to get more people into those zones again...

[Vayne]

I've stopped playing (I'm not threatening to stop... I already did) because the game is changing into something complete different than what I signed up for, and because most of the issues that I see with this game, aren't being addressed (or the solutions that ArenaNet is coming with, are only making the issues bigger in my opinion). ArenaNet has made it clear from the very start what direction they wanted the game to go into, and which things they would and wouldn't do. And they attracted a lot of new (casual) players because of that. Then ArenaNet panicked when a large group of players who were used to the WoW-mentality of endgame, rushed through their content and left the game again. So now they are throwing it all around, throwing their original principles overboard, and are creating a completely different game. And the direction they are heading in now, just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I'd much rather go back to playing single player RPG's, possibly waiting for a game like Elder Scrolls Online (if that's any good) than continuing to spend my time doing endgame that I don't enjoy. Be honest, if ArenaNet came to the realization that there was way too little interest in exploring, and that a lot of people actually want open world pvp instead, and if they added open world pvp to all the PvE zones to draw in more people, would you still have just as much fun and defend ArenaNet for just "doing what's best for the game and the company"? Because with how empty most of the PvE zones are right now, that might well be a way to get more people into those zones again...

I don't know. There are people in early zones on my server...maybe because it's an RP server? Not a ton of people, not a huge zerg, but certainly enough to do the events there.

And this weekend, they're giving free access to people and many will buy the game, which is another way to get people into earlier zones.

At any rate, it's sad to see an avid supporter turned away by company policy, no matter what the reason.

[bokiz333]

. If there is "no item treadmill" then is, with the "Ascended" items, with 100% certainty the maximum reached, or will the whole thing start again all over again in a year or two?

We simply cannot give you a percentage. You saw how an old announcement about Exotic/Legendary weapons was treated "But back then you said..." - so if I tell you that with 100% certainty there will never be anything higher, that would not be helpful. Even if in e.g. Guild Wars 1 we never made any substantial changes, there were still green items (also in later chapters) which enabled weapon combinations that simply were not achievable in the Prophecies times (15-staff of energy for example), and still it wasn't a gear treadmill.


MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....We can't tell you for certian there won't be higher gear?

Wait till the patch they said. See how it plays out they said. This is a in between step and there will be no more grind they said.

I saw through the BS right away....bokiz said.