ArenaNet: Linsey Murdock unveils High End Ascended Gear (2012-11-13)

[frunk]

I think there's definitely an attempt to minimize the damage of the progression for the overall game, but there's no question that it's designed as a grind.

[Vayne]

Well, sure it is. Just as in Guild Wars 1 obsidian armor was designed as a grind. But back then, you could get away with keep stats on those items equal to the stats on just normal max armor.

The problem is, the MMO community has become very used to some sort of stat progression. Even in the thread on this forum, in the lengendary thread, a lot of people said they wouldn't bother with legendaries because their stats weren't any better. This is a problem for Anet from the point of view of longevity. If people won't try for legendaries because of no stats, and that's supposed to be the long term goal, Anet is essentially screwed.

So they have to create some stat difference, while making those stats relatively small. I'm not sure what else they could have done.

I suppose there are people who believe they simply should have stuck to their guns, no matter what, but I'm not one of them. At the end of the day, they still have an overhead and they have data I'm not privy to. So they had to make a choice. You can walk away, you can yell about it, you can accept it, there are a lot of ways to handle it.

As long as I'm not forced to grind, I could care less.

[Ruse]

Oh lordy. I think the original Vayne got replaced by body snatchers or something. :B

EDIT: And you know yourself that the people posting on forums are always the majority the unhappy ones; people who are content are playing the game. As for what else they could have done -- I listed a bunch of things they could have tried first to generate more revenue and add a sense of progression for people that didn't involve bigger numbers on gear.

But they didn't try anything. They went for MOAR POWAR.

[Jim Hunter]

But they didn't try anything. They went for MOAR POWAR.

Exactly.
After years of saying this game will be skill based instead of gear based their first real update/way to keep players was to add gear progression.

They are testing the waters and if you don't want to see a gear grind the time to show them is right now.

[Ruse]

Jim shares my thoughts on it. There's no hard metric they can look at that says, "OK with X degree of gear grind because still logging in regularly."

A metric they CAN look at, though, is "Logged in daily, spent X amount of money in cash shop, has not logged in since gear announcement." That's something they'll sit up and take note of. The rest? It'll be too late by the time they hit your outrage limits.

EDIT: Because make no mistake, Anet doesn't give a shit about your outrage. They only care if it's enough to stop you from logging in and spending.

[Venn]

Actually, there were already plenty of rare weapon skins between the regular exotics (pearl crafted stuff, dungeon stuff) and legendaries. I can't find the complete list but here's a sampling. Some of those, like Foefire's Essence, are basically mini legendaries.

Just because they hid them behind a thoroughly opaque Mystic Forge system doesn't mean there aren't prestige skins already out there to bridge the gap. If they'd kept statistical parity between exotics and legendaries, the gap was already nicely bridged.

Point being, there was a ton of things they could have tried to get people who weren't logging in to come back. They could have tried just new content. They could have added things to the cash shop people have actually been asking for, like makeovers and name changes. They could have added new customization options, done a blog about the hidden unique skins, implemented ladders (for WvW individual prowess, for PvE prowess), implemented the Agony/Infusion mechanic only (without stat creep), etc.

But no. They went for adding bigger numbers to things

EDIT: You said yourself though that when you left Rift, you still had GW2 to look forward to. You don't have another game on the horizon ... consider that you may be more willing to give Anet a pass because of this.

Objectively speaking, not just because mine wife sayeth, the woman is 100% right.

(although can't help but take analogy as a warning. lol)

[Ruse]

(although can't help but take analogy as a warning. lol)

You have been warned. Lol.

[Vayne]

So because gear progression exists in a game, gear grind exists in a game?

I guess what we're really arguing about is how gear grind is defined. Guild Wars has always had grind, voluntary or otherwise. The problem is, Guild Wars 2 is targeted at a fairly mainstream audience. If all they did was keep Guild Wars players, this game wouldn't have enough income to be viable, when the investment is considered.

I have never said I was happy or in love with that they've done. Not once. It simply won't affect me, which is quite another story. As I keep saying a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Now if I required the new gear to play, to finish content, that would be another story. I'm sure by the time that happens, it will be easy to get. That's pretty much my personal guideline.

In an ideal world, people wouldn't be concerned with reward and they'd just be able to have fun. I'd have preferred that world.

But I'm not willing to give up every MMO ever made because I'd prefer the world to be different. The real test is still to come. Will this actually affect my gameplay, as opposed to affecting my sense of MMO right and wrong.

If there was such a thing as MMO morality, this would be a very questionable action. But the game isn't pay to win, it's not making me spend money on the cash shop, I'm not worried about grinding out gear any more than I was before they said legendaries would have higher stats. It just doesn't affect me.

And I think that those who it does affect are actually thinking more of the theory than actual gameplay.

[Ruse]

So because gear progression exists in a game, gear grind exists in a game?

...Yes, lol. That's pretty much exactly what that means. It doesn't matter if it gets easier and easier to get the earlier tiers; WoW does that too. Stat creep causes way more problems than it solves, and that's not just from an "mmo morality" viewpoint, as you put it.

Power Creep

Among its negatives is that it drives games away from being as skill-based. Which was another big reason I bought GW2. I know, I know. It doesn't make that big of a difference yet. But Fey already linked similar steps in early WoW's stat bumps. It basically comes down to, do you trust Anet to have this be the end of it?

Vayne, you appear to have some faith still in the company. I don't.

[Fey]

EDIT: You said yourself though that when you left Rift, you still had GW2 to look forward to. You don't have another game on the horizon ... consider that you may be more willing to give Anet a pass because of this.

Actually I think it's more a matter of; will this help the game or not?

It's really really hard to call, because on one hand. You're right, they definitely made it seem like there wouldn't be item progression in any form at 80. Obviously things will expand with expansions as levels increase and new items are introduced but that's different and generally expected. Going back on what you said you'd do is always bad for PR.

And on the other hand, the game needs to be successful, the player base needs to stay high and active. They're no longer dealing with and instanced based MMO model. All the things you and other people love about the game are great. But if that alone is not keeping people interested then there's a problem. If adding this new gear system is what will keep the game alive, then honestly it's for the better. Because no one wants to play a dead game, especially if said dead game has no long-term appeal.

It's definitely a pickle.

There's one thing that's a guarantee though. People that are mad and leaving because of this are doing nothing but hurting the game. It still has everything you all loved and it seemed like you've dropped it so easily. I don't see how that really helps anyone.

I think what's really happening here, is that ArenaNet is used to their closed world game, where they're able to tweak everything as they see fit and it didn't really matter because everyone had a very different experience within. When something is instanced based, you can easily control every aspect of what's going to happen to every player and easily predict what will keep them around for it. You can't do that with an open world and ArenaNet doesn't seem to have made that mental shift yet. The way they try to control the forums, would be a good example of this mentality. "We only want people to talk about what we view as relevant and NOTHING else".