ArenaNet: Linsey Murdock unveils High End Ascended Gear (2012-11-13)

[Centaur]

Lie to people. You keep repeating this. Making changes isn't lying. It's making changes. Hyperbole remains hyperbole. They are making changes to a game that some people didn't like. You don't like the changes.

If the changes you're making contradict what you have told people from the start what your aim and direction would be, and in fact are making the kind of changes that you told people you would never make, then regardless of your reasons for those changes, you have lied to those people.

If I tell someone that I will never, ever travel to France, and then, for whatever reason, decide to go to France anyway, then I have lied. ArenaNet told us that they would make a game where there would not be gear progression at the level cap, and where the game wouldn't suddenly change at endgame. They even made an official manifesto out of it, to show people how serious they were about this, and to prove that their game was going to be different.
That is simply not true anymore. You can accept that and claim that they probably had a very good reason for making that change (it may indeed make more sense from a business point of view), but the fact remains that they changed what they told people and did what they said they would never do... in other words, they lied to people. You can defend ArenaNet all you want, but you cannot change that simple fact.

[Lagger]

Are you guys even aware of what you're discussing or are we talking semantics now?

[Ruse]

Pretty sure we're back on the semantics train.

[Vayne]

If the changes you're making contradict what you have told people from the start what your aim and direction would be, and in fact are making the kind of changes that you told people you would never make, then regardless of your reasons for those changes, you have lied to those people.

If I tell someone that I will never, ever travel to France, and then, for whatever reason, decide to go to France anyway, then I have lied. ArenaNet told us that they would make a game where there would not be gear progression at the level cap, and where the game wouldn't suddenly change at endgame. They even made an official manifesto out of it, to show people how serious they were about this, and to prove that their game was going to be different.
That is simply not true anymore. You can accept that and claim that they probably had a very good reason for making that change (it may indeed make more sense from a business point of view), but the fact remains that they changed what they told people and did what they said they would never do... in other words, they lied to people. You can defend ArenaNet all you want, but you cannot change that simple fact.

Sorry but having every intention of doing something and not being able to do it does not equal a lie. If you tell someone on Thursday and you die on Wednesday you didn't lie, you made a mistake. Or if something comes up and you can't make it, well, you did tell the truth when you said you were coming. It doesn't mean you lied. It means you were wrong.

There's a difference between saying something and having something come up and changing your mind, and saying something with the deliberate desire to fool people.

[Centaur]

Does this sound like they had every intention of changing it, right from the start:

Legendary Weapons ofcourse are not any more powerful than kind of the top level exotic weapons. In fact, each Legendary Weapon is based off of a very specific exotic weapon power wise, so they're exactly the same power wise, but they look a whole lot cooler.

Honestly, I can understand why these changes don't bother you that much and why you're okay with them, but I cannot understand that you can be so blind to not see that ArenaNet are going against the things they have told us they would do.

[Vayne]

Does this sound like they had every intention of changing it, right from the start:



Honestly, I can understand why these changes don't bother you that much and why you're okay with them, but I cannot understand that you can be so blind to not see that ArenaNet are going against the things they have told us they would do.

I'm not blind, I'm pragmatic.

I had no intention of going for a legendary at all. It wasn't worth what you had to do for it. My complaints about legendaries are completely different from yours.

For one thing, I wish they'd take that damn icon off the load page, because I'll probably never have a legendary. I don't think it should have included needing 500 WvW badges to get all of them. It means PVe'ers who don't want to PvP MUST do WvW in order to get one, which already went against playing the game your way.

I agree they said something and they're changing it. I'm not saying they're not. I'm saying that they were wrong to believe that they could have cosmetic only upgrades and it would work for most people. Not after years and years and years of other MMOs. It would work for me. I'm not most people.

The problem is two-fold. I want an MMO I can play and enjoy. And I want that MMO to be successful. I don't believe that having cosmetic only gear WILL make an MMO successful, even if I'd prefer it. I didn't think so months ago, and expressed my doubts to a number of people I know that I talk to regularly.

I was actually going to discuss this on the Searing before it went into a weird hiatus. The legendary weapons, in my opinion, needed higher stats or people wouldn't go for them, they'd get bored and leave. This was my thought process BEFORE all this. My personal theory predates the changes Anet are making. I was almost positive they'd have to do this. I hoped they wouldn't but part of me always suspected they would.

I do believe when they said what they said, they really believed this could make it work. I was happy to let them try. So my acceptance of this comes less from listening to what they said, and more from not really believing they could pull it off.

I really do believe when they said it, they had every intention of making it work though. Thus it's not a lie. And in their place, I'd have done pretty much what they did. Because I've run a business and I'm pragmatic.

[Ruse]

For one thing, I wish they'd take that damn icon off the load page, because I'll probably never have a legendary. I don't think it should have included needing 500 WvW badges to get all of them. It means PVe'ers who don't want to PvP MUST do WvW in order to get one, which already went against playing the game your way.

WAIT WAIT WAIT. The irony is too much. So legendaries, which were intended to represent mastery of every aspect of the game, shouldn't involve WvW badges (which can be gotten from jumping puzzles, by the way), because people who want that can't play their way. But adding gear with an actual stat boost to dungeons only, "isn't forcing people to do it if they don't want to." Which you may not have said in exactly those words, but that's been the general sentiment.

Wowza. Mind = blown.

[Vayne]

WAIT WAIT WAIT. The irony is too much. So legendaries, which were intended to represent mastery of every aspect of the game, shouldn't involve WvW badges (which can be gotten from jumping puzzles, by the way), because people who want that can't play their way. But adding gear with an actual stat boost to dungeons only, "isn't forcing people to do it if they don't want to." Which you may not have said in exactly those words, but that's been the general sentiment.

Wowza. Mind = blown.

My problem is legendaries are on the title page, and I'll probably never have one. Get the image of the title page, because every single other thing on that page is easily achievable and it doesn't fit. If the lengendary is the be all end all weapon, you don't need an achievement.

I have no real problem with anything being in the legendary, including higher stats, but I know lots of people who'll never get one, because they don't want to WvW. And people have complained about it.

I'd be very happy not seeing that empty legendary slot every time I log in, that's all. But I'm not at all affected by people having slightly higher stats, even in WvW. It doesn't bother me. Looking at a big empty space that will never be filled on my main page does.

[Vayne]

On the nature of hypocrisy, Anet also said everyone could play their own way but they make a legendary weapon that you have to grind dungeons and WvW to get. That's a choice too, but it pretty much stops progression for anyone else at Exotics. Since people DO like progression, that legendary gave those people nothing to work towards. Nothing at all. That's why the new level of gear had to be introduced in the first place. There were no real mid term goals and some people, even a lot of people need those.

As for the stat increase, that's to maximize the people who need to see some improvement and won't just play for cosmetics.

I've talked about games training players a lot, and some people scoff at this, but 7 years of MMOs all in one mold make it hard for people to adapt to something different. Anet had to compromise and they did. They made a stat increase, but not a particularly large one.

The problem with a good compromise is no one really leaves the room happy.

[Ruse]

Lol but you specifically said it meant that something that had no statistical advantage being out of their reach was not allowing them to "play their way."

I don't think it should have included needing 500 WvW badges to get all of them.

^You said that. Being "forced" to WvW for a legendary is bad (because, that awful hole on your login screen), but being "forced" (because you insist we aren't) to do this dungeon to get higher stats is OK.

Make up your mind. Less fence-sitting and backpeddling, plox.