Now who's playing semantics. I've never backpeddled on anything, no matter how you try to paint me. I disagree with two main points. 1. The grind that's being introduced is forced grind and 2. Anet didn't lie, though they have changed direction. That's all I'm saying.Originally Posted by Ruse
Beyond that everything you say I agree with.
...Not me? I don't see how this is semantics. If one is against Anet's "play your way" thing, then so is another. If one is OK, then so is the other. That's logic, not semantics.
|| Art by Melo-san of Gaia Online ||
|| GW2 ID: Ruse Torrent | Elementalist of Acolytes [Aco], a WvW guild ||
|| Woe to the conquered, all glory to the Acolytes. Rise. Fall. Rise again. ||
I brought that up to prove a point, but apparently it was lost. I've had almost no sleep this weekend, so that might be my fault.
The point is anyone can point to something or several things Anet said and say they went back on their word, therefore they lied. It's very easy. People do it all the time. I've seen people on this forum say they feel like they're grinding to get to 80 and Anet said no grind so they lied. But I see that as an interpretation.
The only reason I'm actually okay with this is because I didn't think Anet really had a prayer of keeping all the gear cosmetic anyway. I'd hoped they could, but never believed it, not from day 1.
This is because people over the last seven years have played MMOs and come to expect certain things. You can change the game only so far, before people will reject it. The budget for the game is too big to have too few people and the world even is designed around having lots of people. You can't really play Guild Wars 2 properly on a low pop server. Rift has the same sorts of issues.
So they need to keep numbers. And I have never really believed they could do it the way they said. I think they've come to the same conclusion. But I don't think they lied about it...I really think they believed it would work.
The compromise from their point of view is damage control. Give people some upgrade, but make it a modest one. Don't make it so that people who don't want it are seriously disadvantaged. Sure it sucks, if you didn't see it coming before they annouced it, but I have seen it coming.
I've seen it in large part because of posts on this forum. I see how people are reacting. I see what people are needing. I don't love that people are needing it, but I'm sure not able to blame Anet for anything except not seeing it too. Most people will not play a game for just cosmetic gear and that's one of the reasons Guild Wars 1 wasn't more mainstream. And of course, why people like you loved it.
It sucks that you and Centaur and others feel lied to. But that doesn't mean Anet set out to deliberately lie either. If I really believed this game would be viable long term without doing this, I'd happily say don't do it...but I don't.
And some people are going to be pissed and leave over this. I get that too. But I think Anet is introducing this with the intention of not introducing gear grind....but some sort of compromise. Those who can't adapt are going to leave, and that's unfortunate.
But I still don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be...and I have a right to feel that way. It's almost like people are upset so I have to be upset too.
To summarize, Vayne: you're saying that they are implementing gear progression, gear grind, and specific endgame content because they want to maximize the number of players asking for that. And I agree. But ArenaNet created the impression that they would never do that, which was misleading and is now officially false. (To lie: to create a false or misleading impression). In other words: ArenaNet lied.
Even then, I understand the financial reasoning behind it, and I understand that this is what makes a certain group of players happy (whether or not that group is a majority or a minority, only time will tell). This change of focus just means that it's moving further and further from the direction that I want the game to head in, and that their 'solutions' to the problems that the game currently have, actually are part of the problem for me, making that problem only bigger. And until they actually come with solutions for all the problems that I currently have with this game (including this newly introduced one), I've just lost all appetite to play.
But this wasn't an interpretation.
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Also this probably the most hypocritical thing I've seen said on these forums. Not a week ago you were saying "You underestimate how big the population of the game is into exploration niche. Blah blah blah. The game will sustain itself through people that understand open world content. Blah".
Not being mean, just saying. You're starting to sound a little redundant and silly.
A big population is into exploration. That doesn't mean they don't need progression of some kind. These ideas aren't mutually exclusive. This is what happens when stuff from forums gets taken out to context.
I said we don't need raids. That's what that was about. I said a lot of people don't need a game centered on gear grind. I stand by these things. This is not the kind of gear grind I fight against. if I make a distinction it doesn't make me hypocritical. It makes me see things from a different angle as you.
My reference point wasn't WoW, it was Rift. I saw how that game was going. There was nothing in the tiny world worth really exploring. The closest thing they had were sparklies you could collect. I wasn't all that interested. Everything is was totally pointless.
The open world in Guild Wars 2 is completely different than the open world in Rift when I played it for a host of reasons. Saying that lots of people are into exploration doesn't mean that when you break it down any one group is enough to fund a triple A game. You need ALL the factions. There are probably not enough people who only PvP, there certainly aren't enough people who's chief game is raiding. You need lots of people to fund a triple A MMO.
Many many many people solo. I'm not so sure that it's enough to support a triple A MMO. SOme of those soloers explore, some RP, some just hang out with friends, and it's all valid. Many do like exploration, but that doesn't mean they don't need anything to work for besides that. That's like taking a line out of what I'm talking about with not needing raids or gear grind and saying it means no progression is needed at all.
Eventually, even a guy like me is going to start running out of stuff to find. You can still love the world and spent time in it. It doesn't mean I don't need something to work for. That's what these events are about. They give you something new to do once a month, and they help.
But taking something I said in one conversation out of context and dragging into another pretty much proves nothing. For example, if the combat wasn't fun in this game, all the exploration in the world won't help it. So the game needs combat as well. I don't bring that up, because it's not talking to the point of a specific thread, even though it's true.
Games need fun things to do, combat, some kind of progress (it doesn't have to be vertical for me and a lot of other people) but we certainly see a ton of people it does. And I also talk about games programming people. After seven years of just about every MMO offering vertical progression there are people who have come to expect it. I'm pretty sure of other games had some out that didn't that were popular in this time, the need for it would be somewhat lessened. This is why I keep railing against WoW clones. They taught an entire generation of people how to play games quite different from the RPGs years ago, obviously because it helped their bottom line, but to me it has set the RPG genre back considerably, at least the MMORPG genre.
And I speak frrequently on these forums about immersion. Vanilla wow was immersive to a lot of people. They really got into it, according to a lot of people. That's what gave them the foothold to turn the game into a giant grind for gear, it didn't happen right away, and it's what a lot of people are scared that Anet will do now.
I don't see this happening but it COULD happen. None of this makes me hypocritical. I'm not writing books when I respond to posts, I'm writing articles, from my particular vantage. I'm defensive of those who say story or lore is unimportant, because it's important to lots of people. I said any MMO who ignores those people will lose. I didn't say that they alone would be enough to fund a triple A MMO however.
Those are two entirely different statements.
Well... yes, you're right. But usually, when you make a mistake, you say so. You don't pretend nothing's happened and moved on to doing something completely different without any explanation, do you? Well, unless you are a politician, of course, they do that all the time. Hence why population here mistrusts them. Because they are liars.
See, honest people would stand up and say "Ok guys, we're sorry... we failed. We intended to do X, but we failed and now we have to do Y, we're really sorry about that."
Not "Lulz, we said X but you know, Y is cool, too and we planned this the whole time so you don't need to worry about it!"
Last edited by Lagger; 11-19-2012 at 03:20 AM.
Anet didn't say lulz we planned this all along. They said that they noticed there were long term goals and people were getting the short term goals way faster than they thought they would, so they needed a medium term goal. That's what was said.Well... yes, you're right. But usually, when you make a mistake, you say so. You don't pretend nothing's happened and moved on to doing something completely different without any explanation, do you? Well, unless you are a politician, of course, they do that all the time. Hence why population here mistrusts them. Because they are liars.
See, honest people would stand up and say "Ok guys, we're sorry... we failed. We intended to do X, but we failed and now we have to do Y, we're really sorry about that."
Not "Lulz, we said X but you know, Y is cool, too and we planned this the whole time so you don't need to worry about it!"
It would be nice for Anet to apologize but I don't think that'll make a lick of difference, because some people REALLY hate gear grind. I mean really really really hate it. Those people came here and at the first whiff that the game might be full on going that way, they run for the hills...and I don't blame them. Because I hate gear grind. It certainly seems my definition of gear grind is different from theirs.
I think Anet should apologize, though. I just don't see what difference it will make if people hate the direction anyway.
Did this debate actually get anywhere the last 10 pages...starting to hurt my eyes reading the huge posts you novelists keep posting.
For my tuppence worth (actually worth a lot less than tuppence):
GW2 is no longer the game i bought into.
The classes are far from equal..and after trying a bit of everything..im on a grind for the only thing left available.
Do not meddle in the affairs of the Charr because, to them, you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
Ok good, then you agree with Ruse and the others. Great! The difference that such an apology would make is simple, yet profound. Respect towards the people that bought and supported the game so far. I think ANet owes them at least honesty and an apology, if nothing else.
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