ArenaNet: Linsey Murdock unveils High End Ascended Gear (2012-11-13)

[Vayne]

Waiting until tomorrow until he finishes answering and someone compiles the Q&A into a format that is a bit easier to read. I tried following it on reddit but their layout is a nightmare.

Anyway I got the main answers I was looking for even if I didn't like the answers. We'll see for sure tomorrow but this looks like it's not going to be the kind of game they led me to believe it would be. I won't be deleting or asking for a refund but I also won't be giving them any cash and rarely (if ever) playing.

Damned shame, this game had a lot of promise.

The game still has great promise, just not for you. I really can't believe how blown out of proportion this is. You said your fear was gear creep. They reiterated they have no desire to keep coming out with new tiers, but they thought this one was necessary.

What about what he said is leading you to believe gear creep is coming to the game?

[bokiz333]

People who are farming this gear aren't really interested in the open world stuff anyway. Most of them are either dungeon grinders or WvW guys anyway. The guys who want to play in the open world are going to still want to play in the open world as long as there's stuff for them to do. Like pretty much most of my guild.

People talk like this divide doesn't already exist...but it does. There are already people who pretty much ignore the open world and only do WvW or dungeons for the tokens they need. They exist now...before all this happens. And this change is large in part for those people.

What Anet had to be careful about is making it so that those people could get something but it wouldn't affect players like me. And those things, if they do affect players like me can be adjusted.

That's what MMOs are...an imperfect vehicle that needs constant adjustment. Skill balance, reward balance, difficulty balance...it's all ongoing.

That's why I'm not particularly worried and why I'm not panicking.

Bro you've done more flip flopping than a flap jack.

The game was going you lose you with no VERTICAL gear progression, Mr. PVE? Really? That's a twist from the explore and immersion Vayne I knew and loved.

And you're really missing the point or intentionally presenting strawmen arguments...the divide that you're talking about is meaningless; NOBODY cared about what content people did. NObody in WvW cared if there are some other people running AC part 3 or whatever. So that divide is just like saying "ascended are there to bridge the gap between legendaries and exotic" but introducing higher stats while the gap was time and mat commitement. No wonder you're agreeing with AN so much; you both like to compare apples to aardvarks.

[Centaur]

Waiting until tomorrow until he finishes answering and someone compiles the Q&A into a format that is a bit easier to read. I tried following it on reddit but their layout is a nightmare.

See here for all the questions and answers, or here for a pretty good summary of the Ascended Gear related stuff.

The game still has great promise, just not for you. I really can't believe how blown out of proportion this is. You said your fear was gear creep. They reiterated they have no desire to keep coming out with new tiers, but they thought this one was necessary.

Actually, if you read their replies carefully, they've said that they don't intend to introduce a "higher tier of loot for the foreseeable future", but they've also stated that they "will have vertical progression moving forward"... they just want the 'grind' to be something that you enjoy doing, in which case they don't call it a grind.
And as can be derived from Mike O'Brien's replies, they absolutely do intend to increase the level cap someday (in a future expansion), at which time you can definitely expect higher tiers of gear.
As Mike said: "GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was".

So if you're expecting this tier to be the last one, then expect to be proven wrong.

That said, for me personally, there were some good things said in that AMA about the direction they want the game to go into. So I will keep following the updates that GW2 receives, and if someday the game has turned into something that I enjoy playing again, then I will return to playing. As it is, their "intentions" don't change a thing about what the game is today, which is simply not "fun" for me.

[frunk]

People who are farming this gear aren't really interested in the open world stuff anyway. Most of them are either dungeon grinders or WvW guys anyway. The guys who want to play in the open world are going to still want to play in the open world as long as there's stuff for them to do. Like pretty much most of my guild.

People talk like this divide doesn't already exist...but it does. There are already people who pretty much ignore the open world and only do WvW or dungeons for the tokens they need. They exist now...before all this happens. And this change is large in part for those people.

What Anet had to be careful about is making it so that those people could get something but it wouldn't affect players like me. And those things, if they do affect players like me can be adjusted.

That's what MMOs are...an imperfect vehicle that needs constant adjustment. Skill balance, reward balance, difficulty balance...it's all ongoing.

That's why I'm not particularly worried and why I'm not panicking.

Yes, and why introduce a change for grinders that messes up the balance for WvW and all other PvE? I'm ok if they want to make a mechanism that appeals to them, just isolate it. Make the gear FotM specific, or remove the bonus stats outside FotM. The best way to appeal to specific groups without making damaging changes across the board is to limit the change. They did that with sPvP but disregarded the rest. I have a feeling the sPvP developers are a fairly united group within ANet and said "hell no!"

[bokiz333]

Im sure we all know that joke where the guy asks the girl if she'll sleep with him for a million dollars and she says yes. Then he says, what about $5. And she says "no, who do you think I am?". The punchline is "we already established that, now we're just negotiating"

Same thing with this game, you either believe vertical progression has no place in a game (like manifesto said) or you believe it's something that is a legitemate game mechanic that you want to have. You can argue how much more effective it is than exotic, and how much more of it will or will not come, but at that point we're just negotiating.

[Vayne]

Bro you've done more flip flopping than a flap jack.

The game was going you lose you with no VERTICAL gear progression, Mr. PVE? Really? That's a twist from the explore and immersion Vayne I knew and loved.

And you're really missing the point or intentionally presenting strawmen arguments...the divide that you're talking about is meaningless; NOBODY cared about what content people did. NObody in WvW cared if there are some other people running AC part 3 or whatever. So that divide is just like saying "ascended are there to bridge the gap between legendaries and exotic" but introducing higher stats while the gap was time and mat commitement. No wonder you're agreeing with AN so much; you both like to compare apples to aardvarks.

Okay let's try this one more time. I haven't flip flopped yet. I've never had anything specifically against vertical progression, I have had something against required gear grind. I see these as different. As long as content is NOT gated, I don't care. Period. That's my personal criteria.

You have different criterias and that's fine. But I'm not flip-flopping, I'm not hypocritical, I'm not giving Anet a free pass. I'm enjoying a game I purchased and will continue to play it as long as I enjoy it.

Why does this threaten you?

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Im sure we all know that joke where the guy asks the girl if she'll sleep with him for a million dollars and she says yes. Then he says, what about $5. And she says "no, who do you think I am?". The punchline is "we already established that, now we're just negotiating"

Same thing with this game, you either believe vertical progression has no place in a game (like manifesto said) or you believe it's something that is a legitemate game mechanic that you want to have. You can argue how much more effective it is than exotic, and how much more of it will or will not come, but at that point we're just negotiating.

Show me where the manifesto says there'll be no vertical progression in this game. I'l wait here. I took the liberty of POSTING the entire text of the manifesto just to stop this argument. The Manifesto in fact, didn't mention vertical progression at all. It mentioned grind, and the context in which is mentioned grind was clearly about grinding mobs to level. It wasn't about grinding for skins or anything else.

"I swung a sword, I swung it again, hey I swung it again. That's just great. We don't want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way people feel about combat."

That's the only thing you might even slightly think is about vertical progression. Clearly, the reference is to something else entirely. I challenge you to listen to the manifesto against and point out to me where it says anything about vertical progression...I'll wait here.

As I've said before, there's already vertical progression in the game, since exotics and rares and masterworks are all level 80. Vertical progression was already in the game. They added a new tier. I get that. It bothers you. Shrugs. Then don't play.

But don't say the manifesto says something it doesn't.

[bokiz333]

Okay let's try this one more time. I haven't flip flopped yet. I've never had anything specifically against vertical progression, I have had something against required gear grind. I see these as different. As long as content is NOT gated, I don't care. Period. That's my personal criteria.

You have different criterias and that's fine. But I'm not flip-flopping, I'm not hypocritical, I'm not giving Anet a free pass. I'm enjoying a game I purchased and will continue to play it as long as I enjoy it.

Why does this threaten you?

Strawman much? When did you stop beating your wife Mr Vayne?



When did I say this "threatened me"? A: I did not.

The flippity floppitiness my friend comes from YOU talking about how you like to immerse yourself in the game and explore everything and you have no map markers on, etc. Please tell me how gear with higher stats (not gear that takes more time and effort to make and just looks different) makes ANY difference with that playstyle? Or WvW or anuything you say you play? But now you say it was needed to keep you? Silly rabbit, flips are for kids.

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Show me where the manifesto says there'll be no vertical progression in this game. I'l wait here. I took the liberty of POSTING the entire text of the manifesto just to stop this argument. The Manifesto in fact, didn't mention vertical progression at all. It mentioned grind, and the context in which is mentioned grind was clearly about grinding mobs to level. It wasn't about grinding for skins or anything else.

"I swung a sword, I swung it again, hey I swung it again. That's just great. We don't want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way people feel about combat."

That's the only thing you might even slightly think is about vertical progression. Clearly, the reference is to something else entirely. I challenge you to listen to the manifesto against and point out to me where it says anything about vertical progression...I'll wait here.

As I've said before, there's already vertical progression in the game, since exotics and rares and masterworks are all level 80. Vertical progression was already in the game. They added a new tier. I get that. It bothers you. Shrugs. Then don't play.

But don't say the manifesto says something it doesn't.

OK Centaur, will you please find the quote that was quoted multiple times and Vayne choses to ignore where they specifically talk about how they don't believe gear should have higher stats and they don't believe in that. Something along the lines of "takes a long time and not easy to achieve should only have difference in apperance" or some such.

Maybe it wasn't the manifesto, but it was CLEARLY and repeatedly stated by makers of the game before release. Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining by pretending that the devs didn't market and sell this game in a VERY VERY specific way, in a anti grind, anti gear creep, cooperative game.

[Vayne]

Strawman much? When did you stop beating your wife Mr Vayne?



When did I say this "threatened me"? A: I did not.

The flippity floppitiness my friend comes from YOU talking about how you like to immerse yourself in the game and explore everything and you have no map markers on, etc. Please tell me how gear with higher stats (not gear that takes more time and effort to make and just looks different) makes ANY difference with that playstyle? Or WvW or anuything you say you play? But now you say it was needed to keep you? Silly rabbit, flips are for kids.

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OK Centaur, will you please find the quote that was quoted multiple times and Vayne choses to ignore where they specifically talk about how they don't believe gear should have higher stats and they don't believe in that. Something along the lines of "takes a long time and not easy to achieve should only have difference in apperance" or some such.

Maybe it wasn't the manifesto, but it was CLEARLY and repeatedly stated by makers of the game before release. Dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining by pretending that the devs didn't market and sell this game in a VERY VERY specific way, in a anti grind, anti gear creep, cooperative game.

Right, I saw the quote, but it's not in the manifesto, it's from elsewhere. There has been grind in this game since legendaries were introduced. It's the same is Guild Wars 1 to me, voluntary grind. I still don't see anything that would make me grind.

Show me where I said this was required to keep ME playing. I said there are people who apparently need this, I never said I was one of them.

I don't need vertical progression to play a game, and I don't mind playing a game with vertical progression as long as content is not gated. If I can get into every dungeon and see what it's about, the story mode, so to speak, then I'm happy. It's when there's content that's gated by gear that you can't see at all that I have a problem with. That was my problem with Rift. I didn't want to raid. But in order to finish your primary quest you have to.

Well, in Guild Wars 2, I finished my personal story, and it was fine. I did every dungeon in story mode and many in explorable mode. I haven't had all exotic gear for any of it. This content is NOT gated by gear. I've done most if not all of the fractals, up to level 3. I'm never going to repeat that content over and over, because I've seen it and I'm happy. It was fun. I enjoyed it.

If other people want to go there and bang their head against that wall, that's in no way my problem. It doesnt' affect my game. And it won't stop me from jumping into WvW with my guild and playing there either.

So what is the backflip you keep bringing up? I don't see vertical progression as required gear grind, unless there's content I can't do. When you show me what I can't do/see/explore because of these changes, then we can talk.

[Centaur]

OK Centaur, will you please find the quote that was quoted multiple times and Vayne choses to ignore where they specifically talk about how they don't believe gear should have higher stats and they don't believe in that. Something along the lines of "takes a long time and not easy to achieve should only have difference in apperance" or some such.

I think the post you're referring to is this one ?

[Sericenthe]

The game still has great promise, just not for you. I really can't believe how blown out of proportion this is. You said your fear was gear creep. They reiterated they have no desire to keep coming out with new tiers, but they thought this one was necessary.

What about what he said is leading you to believe gear creep is coming to the game?

I think the huge mistake that was made (and I mentioned this in the other thread) was funneling everyone into one dungeon on the release of this stuff. They thought they were tempering it by only doing rings and back pieces but when you have the best stuff in one place that's where everyone goes. It destroyed Orr. I never see even 1/4 of the numbers I used to see there. They should have had Orr availability, Sea of Sorrows availability, FotM availability, and WvWvW availability to this gear right at the outset. That would have avoided this entire issue altogether.

Funneling this gear into one dungeon is WOWesque of the highest magnitude. I've gone there once and I don't intend to go back very often. If I find out that that's what's required to progress in the game I'll quit and move on.