ArenaNet: Linsey Murdock unveils High End Ascended Gear (2012-11-13)

[Toc]

I don't care if a game has a gear grind for cosmetic improvements. They are welcome to them. GW1 had it as well and I happily ignored it entirely. A gear grind for game affecting improvements is the issue.

But it's not only cosmetic... If I wanted P/V/T gear I had to either grind wvw badges or grind 1 of 2 dungeons for tokens...

I haven't been on the forums for a few days, but to reply to cent's post about not having to grind to get full exotics at lvl 80...

You must have been very lucky? As I stated earlier I have part crafted (i have 80 in almost all crafts), part dungeon, part purchased and one piece from badges.

There is no way my character was going to have all the globs you need for a full set of exotics by the time I hit 80. I had to "grind" to get items to salvage and grind to get coin to buy globs to make a few pieces of crafted exotics.

If you randomly looted every piece of exotic armor and weapon of the correct stats for your build than you need to play the lotto RIGHT NOW! (srsly it's like 500mill!).

You have to repeat, aka "grind", dungeons for enough tokens for a full set of exotics armor/wep.

Badges in WvW are about the hardest method of obtaining your full exotics, most repeat, aka grind, the jumping puzzles to get them.

To get enough gold to buy all your exotics you either made a ton of coin on the TP early on or hit 80 so fast after release you out leveled the TP prices. If you start a new account right now you can not have enough coin to purchase all your exotics by simply leveling to 80 and not grinding any gold...

There has always been/will be a repeated action required in an MMO or most games. No matter what you will be repeating something. AN has done a masterful job of making it so the player can choose what they want to repeat or repeat a little bit of multiple methods (like i did) to reach the end lvl and best gear available.

They screwed up when they introduced the 2 or 3 jewelry pieces of ascended by only allowing the player to get it by doing FotM. They said this was a mistake and they are working to correct it and that it "WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN". I was thrilled by this response as I don't like FotM and don't want their to be only one method of getting a type of gear like other games.

[Vayne]

This particularly answer, while long, backs up what I've said about the difference between any vertical progression at all, and a gear treadmill. Anet apparently feels the same.

Q: "Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs."
That was the quote that sold a lot of people on Guild Wars 2. For years we waited for a game that would give us horizontal progression, not vertical progression. We were told that you were building the game around that.
Then, only a few short months after release, a new higher-stat gear grind was added. Why? Why cater to a sub-section of your playerbase who are cannot stop being, for lack of a better term, WoW-minded when it comes to progression? Why go back on your word to a loyal playerbase that supported you guys for so long?
Also, you stated there was a gap between Legendary and Exotic progression. There was no stat gap, so I can only assume you meant a time gap. But there was a filler -- unique Exotics that were harder to get than the normal, base ones. Please clarify what you meant by that gap.
Thank you.
A: Thanks for taking the time to post your questions. Mike O will respond to the top question and I will respond to the bottom section.
Ascended Gear is designed to fill the 'Time' gap in regard to the distance between exotic and Legendary in terms of progression and in retrospect would have been better to have been rolled out pre launch.
I would also like add that we have never said there would be no vertical progression. We do intent to focus on horizontal but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.
Please understand that we see the community as a 'whole' and therefore are not intending to design again for one specific type of player over another. This is a misconception and one that is not promoted by the team. We will continue to develop the game for the community as a whole offering game play that caters to lots of different types of players in a unified approach that will evolve over time based on feedback and the direction the team as a whole wants to take.
Edit: Mike O's response is below.
(Mike O Brian) A: Hi! I'll respond to the top part since it's a quote from me.
Obviously the key phrase I'm going to point you to in that quote is, "if someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it". That really is the litmus test we've used. That's why, at ship, we gave better stats to exotic gear and didn't give better stats to legendary gear.
More generally, I hope we've been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That's why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PvE and PvP. In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn't allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we've always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.
That's why we've always said that GW2 rewards players through both progression and collection, whereas GW1 primarily rewarded through collection. Presumably players aren't shocked that GW2 rewards through progression, since it has a level 80 cap.
I wonder if the core sentiment is more this: It's only been two-and-a-half months! We don't even all have exotics yet, and already you're introducing another tier. Is this the start of a power progression curve that I'll never be able to keep up with?
I certainly appreciate that worry. I myself don't want a constant struggle, as exists in some other games, to keep my equipment viable.
Then we're left with a balancing act. Some progression is ok, but pushing players onto gear treadmill isn't ok and isn't what the game is about.
So I would ask you to judge us by details, and not by making slippery-slope arguments. We introduced a ton of new content in November, and the sum total of new progression rewards we added to go with it provided a 5-10% stat increase in 2 of 12 slots. I hope you'll agree that that kind of very shallow and gradual progression does not force people onto a gear treadmill.
I think it's important for GW2 to be able to have this kind of gradual progression. Of course we made some mistakes with the way we introduced ascended gear. (See ChrisW's answers for details.) But those are addressable issues. I don't think they invalidate the fundamental concept that GW2 can have gradual stat progression without being a gear treadmill game.

How bad will it be for multiple character guys like me? I have no idea. But they are talking about making all the ascended gear easier to get than it is now.

And they're also saying that it shouldn't prevent anyone from doing content (in another answer).

Basically, this is what I've seen from the beginning, but until the Q&A I had no answers to back up. Some people, purists I'd call them, will still leave the game over this, but this is something that I'll have to watch develop.

I see the community as policing Anet in this. I really don't think the community will get any new MMO get away with anything. So there will always be these storms and these storms will always end up having an affect on the future of the game.

Anet isn't a stupid company. They're a company who does try a lot of things though. And when you try a lot of things, you'll get some stuff right and some stuff wrong. As they try stuff and learn, they'll make changes.

Sometimes I just wish people were more patient.

[Toc]

The whole "increasing your level" thing... I have always thought that they intended to raise the lvl, I told ppl this when I told them about the game years ago... Maybe I just assumed it? Or was it common knowledge, because some seem taken aback by this?

[Vayne]

The whole "increasing your level" thing... I have always thought that they intended to raise the lvl, I told ppl this when I told them about the game years ago... Maybe I just assumed it? Or was it common knowledge, because some seem taken aback by this?

It was definitely mentioned in an interview. At first there was a lot of speculation about it, and finally I think it was Colin but I can't swear to it, came out and said we're definitely looking at raising the level cap. I was actually not sure how to feel about that at the time, but I've come to this conclusion.

For most people, MMOs are just a list of things to work on. We have our 'projects', whether they be collect every dye or explore everything, or get the top level gear. Obviously different people have different projects. I know people who could care less about dye, but they want to in SPvP tournaments. People who want to play WvW all the time have completely different goals than I do.

Anet is trying to make a playground with many different activities. Because some people are "self-entertaining" they make their own fun and their own goals. But some people need to be handed goals, or they're too used to goals in other games, to make new ones without some help.

So Anet is creating, for lack of a better word, a soft vertical progression. If they can do this, making the stuff available through normal play instead of grinding one thing, it will stay within my parameters of what's acceptable. Like in Guild Wars 1, I was able to get Obsidian Armor without grinding at all. I just played, and got drops and eventually had enough money to buy the mats and make it.

I won't grind in Guild Wars 2...but I don't mind if others do. As long as I can still do all the content, and I'm not gated, I don't mind.

[frunk]

But it's not only cosmetic... If I wanted P/V/T gear I had to either grind wvw badges or grind 1 of 2 dungeons for tokens...

I haven't been on the forums for a few days, but to reply to cent's post about not having to grind to get full exotics at lvl 80...

You must have been very lucky? As I stated earlier I have part crafted (i have 80 in almost all crafts), part dungeon, part purchased and one piece from badges.

There is no way my character was going to have all the globs you need for a full set of exotics by the time I hit 80. I had to "grind" to get items to salvage and grind to get coin to buy globs to make a few pieces of crafted exotics.

If you randomly looted every piece of exotic armor and weapon of the correct stats for your build than you need to play the lotto RIGHT NOW! (srsly it's like 500mill!).

You have to repeat, aka "grind", dungeons for enough tokens for a full set of exotics armor/wep.

Badges in WvW are about the hardest method of obtaining your full exotics, most repeat, aka grind, the jumping puzzles to get them.

To get enough gold to buy all your exotics you either made a ton of coin on the TP early on or hit 80 so fast after release you out leveled the TP prices. If you start a new account right now you can not have enough coin to purchase all your exotics by simply leveling to 80 and not grinding any gold...

There has always been/will be a repeated action required in an MMO or most games. No matter what you will be repeating something. AN has done a masterful job of making it so the player can choose what they want to repeat or repeat a little bit of multiple methods (like i did) to reach the end lvl and best gear available.

They screwed up when they introduced the 2 or 3 jewelry pieces of ascended by only allowing the player to get it by doing FotM. They said this was a mistake and they are working to correct it and that it "WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN". I was thrilled by this response as I don't like FotM and don't want their to be only one method of getting a type of gear like other games.

Yes but in most of those cases you had multiple ways to get what you needed, including just about all the different parts of the game apart from sPvP. Some types might be limited in access but in general they aren't superior just suited for specific builds. To me that isn't a grind. If you can do whatever you want in a game to get what you want the only way it can be considered a grind is if the whole game is a grind. A grind is being forced to do something you don't like repetitively to get the reward. At worst you could call it a long term goal.

With FotM they announced there would be different ways of acquiring it right off the bat. They were and are vague as to when this would happen, although after the reddit I'd be surprised if it was more than a month out.

[Vayne]

But it's not only cosmetic... If I wanted P/V/T gear I had to either grind wvw badges or grind 1 of 2 dungeons for tokens...

I haven't been on the forums for a few days, but to reply to cent's post about not having to grind to get full exotics at lvl 80...

You must have been very lucky? As I stated earlier I have part crafted (i have 80 in almost all crafts), part dungeon, part purchased and one piece from badges.

There is no way my character was going to have all the globs you need for a full set of exotics by the time I hit 80. I had to "grind" to get items to salvage and grind to get coin to buy globs to make a few pieces of crafted exotics.

If you randomly looted every piece of exotic armor and weapon of the correct stats for your build than you need to play the lotto RIGHT NOW! (srsly it's like 500mill!).

You have to repeat, aka "grind", dungeons for enough tokens for a full set of exotics armor/wep.

Badges in WvW are about the hardest method of obtaining your full exotics, most repeat, aka grind, the jumping puzzles to get them.

To get enough gold to buy all your exotics you either made a ton of coin on the TP early on or hit 80 so fast after release you out leveled the TP prices. If you start a new account right now you can not have enough coin to purchase all your exotics by simply leveling to 80 and not grinding any gold...

There has always been/will be a repeated action required in an MMO or most games. No matter what you will be repeating something. AN has done a masterful job of making it so the player can choose what they want to repeat or repeat a little bit of multiple methods (like i did) to reach the end lvl and best gear available.

They screwed up when they introduced the 2 or 3 jewelry pieces of ascended by only allowing the player to get it by doing FotM. They said this was a mistake and they are working to correct it and that it "WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN". I was thrilled by this response as I don't like FotM and don't want their to be only one method of getting a type of gear like other games.

I got my full exotics with karma, almost exclusively. I think I crafted two pieces and the rest was karma. By doing dailies, which are pretty easy and can be done anywhere, and monthlies, I have enough karma now to deck out 2-3 80th level characters completely in karma gear.

[Fey]

That's only the grinding issue, not the growing imbalance in the gameplay.

Imbalance to what? Competitive WvW? Okay. Adding imbalance to a gameplay element that's already unbalanced by design. PvE? Because PvE in this game is so competitive and needs constant balancing for those world first races. sPvP? Because they totally break tournaments right?

This really is ridiculous.

[Centaur]

But people had voluntary grinding in Guild Wars 1. It's not dangerous. In fact, I doubt anyone will die or be injured over this.

Please re-read my post, as it appears that you didn't understand it the first time around.

If some people really do need some kind of stat increase to go for that gear, and those people leave the game, keeping in mind that no one knows how big that percentage is, and the game can't move forward because there aren't enough of us who don't need it, is that less or more dangerous for someone who likes the game.

It's a lot of ifs and I simply don't know.

The thing is, I get why so many people are unhappy. There really isn't anything worth doing at max level. Not just for the people who like gear grinding. For everyone who finished all the zones and dungeons and achieved 100% world completion. Introducing these stats may indeed make one group of people happy, but as we have already seen, it chases another group of people away. You simply cannot please both sides, regardless of how ArenaNet wants to believe otherwise. But the biggest problem is, ArenaNet never even tried another solution. A lot of people are so used to gear grinding at endgame that they don't know any other way. From the very start, ArenaNet made people believe that Guild Wars 2 would be different, that you would have other goals at max level than gear. And yet, the only thing they offer to those people, is a gear progression. So yeah, nobody knows how many people like this and how many hate this, but even more: nobody knows how many of the people that like this, would have been happy (possibly even happier) with an alternative. Because ArenaNet didn't even try! So they're going to lose people anyway. They just had to choose which group is more important for them. They made their choice, now they have to deal with the consequences.

Centaur has found three quotes from various interviews, about stuff that's changed since developers have said so. You can keep calling it a complete 180, and to those three statements, it sure looks like it.

Thank you for dismissing those quotes from their own blog (2 of which were taken from their very own "Design Manifesto" blog post, the other was made by their own CEO in a blog post explaining their direction for this game) as just being quotes "from various interviews". Is what ArenaNet say in their own blogs and the direction they outline for this game really that irrelevant to you?

[Vayne]

Please re-read my post, as it appears that you didn't understand it the first time around.



The thing is, I get why so many people are unhappy. There really isn't anything worth doing at max level. Not just for the people who like gear grinding. For everyone who finished all the zones and dungeons and achieved 100% world completion. Introducing these stats may indeed make one group of people happy, but as we have already seen, it chases another group of people away. You simply cannot please both sides, regardless of how ArenaNet wants to believe otherwise. But the biggest problem is, ArenaNet never even tried another solution. A lot of people are so used to gear grinding at endgame that they don't know any other way. From the very start, ArenaNet made people believe that Guild Wars 2 would be different, that you would have other goals at max level than gear. And yet, the only thing they offer to those people, is a gear progression. So yeah, nobody knows how many people like this and how many hate this, but even more: nobody knows how many of the people that like this, would have been happy (possibly even happier) with an alternative. Because ArenaNet didn't even try! So they're going to lose people anyway. They just had to choose which group is more important for them. They made their choice, now they have to deal with the consequences.




Thank you for dismissing those quotes from their own blog (2 of which were taken from their very own "Design Manifesto" blog post, the other was made by their own CEO in a blog post explaining their direction for this game) as just being quotes "from various interviews". Is what ArenaNet say in their own blogs and the direction they outline for this game really that irrelevant to you?

Sarcasm doesn't become you. Hyperbole doesn't either. You say nothing is important in a game and then use the word dangerous. Make up your mind. If nothing is important than nothing is dangerous either. Maybe you missed my point instead of me missing yours.

There's nothing for you to do at max level, maybe. I have a guild full of people who have stuff to do at max level, before the upgrade and the gear grind. Some are going for legendaries, some are just doing dungeons for tokens, some are just having fun exploring the world. Having 100% doesn't mean you've seen everything. In fact, the faster someone gets 100% the more chance they haven't seen everything. Some people love WvW and do that sometimes, and some people like SPvP and do that sometimes. Saying there's nothing to do at end game is at very least disingenuous. You used to be the person listing all the things that could be done.

I'm not dismissing what was said in a couple of interviews, but it's a big jump from this was said in a couple of interviews to this was said in their manifesto. And it's STILL not 180 degrees, because they still say that vertical progression doesn't have to equal gear grind, which I believe to be true. It is gear grind in most games, but it doesnt' have to be.

I said before the AMA I'm going to take a wait and see approach and just about everything I said prior to the AMA was said at the AMA. I wonder why? Maybe because I get what they're doing?

Storm in a teacup. Five guys will leave the game, but you had one foot out the door anyway. You were already bored. You've already said you have nothing to do. So to say now that this change is going to chase players like you from the game is also disingenuous. You can't have it both ways. Either you were bored with the game and putting it down for a while, or this change as incensed you so much that you are using it as a way to justify the fact that you don't like the game as much as you thought you would/should.

The point of my post was there is as much danger in the slippery slope to gear grind as there is in not having enough players for those who are still enjoying the game.

Final point...you say that Anet never tried anything else. Well, I wonder what they're working on trying that they haven't had time to implement. As I've said all along, and most people agree, this is a fast solution. And people don't have patience. So you think they should wait to try slower solutions or find something to do in the interim. This is a good business decision, to at least keep some people happy.

If people had a modicum of patience, they might find other things are in the works. In fact, I'm confident other things are in the works, but everyone wants everything on launch day. It's not going to happen with an MMO ever again. Because they cost too much and take too long to make, and no one can foot that bill forever. Even bigger companies like EA couldn't. There is no way any MMO will ever have enough content at launch.

So three months after launch, Anet throws in something to hold people over, while working on other things. Big, fat hairy deal.

It's only the end of the world if you don't think they're also working on those other things.

[Fey]