Issues with GW2

[Vayne]

Well, I have an excellent idea why they went the way they did, so I judge. lol.They could have at least waited to see how many got pulled back in by new content, and added oft-requested features in the cash shop. You know, the things people are asking to be able to throw money at them for.

So why didn't they do that? Because they just wanted to screw fans over? Was there a reason? No reason? That's my point. We don't know what was discussed or wasn't. I'd certainly be interested to know why this was done as opposed to some other things that have been suggested.

[Ruse]

So why didn't they do that? Because they just wanted to screw fans over? Was there a reason? No reason? That's my point. We don't know what was discussed or wasn't. I'd certainly be interested to know why this was done as opposed to some other things that have been suggested.

It was the most cost-effective. IE, cheapest and took the least amount of development time. Which probably comes as a surprise to no one.

Even the dog is ashamed.

[Vayne]

It was the most cost-effective. IE, cheapest and took the least amount of development time. Which probably comes as a surprise to no one.

Even the dog is ashamed.

Right, because people are so patient, they'd wait for the longer development time. I don't even understand this argument. I'd challenge anyone here to think in terms of business for a minute.

You've just invested five years and millions of dollar to make a product. There are a zillion MMOs out there. The most popular of all of them just came out with a successful expansion. People are bad-mouthing the game all over the place left and right because there's nothing to do at 80, even though that's not true. You have 270 people on staff who have to be paid.

There are several solutions proposed to battle the problem of people leaving because they have nothing to do, even if it is just in their minds. You put solutions on the table. No one knows which will work or won't. At least a couple of them probably haven't been tried and take more development time.

So you, being the staunch, ethical businessman you are then go and take the longer, unknown approach, hoping it will work? Really? Give me a break.

If there really was a problem (and only Anet knows that) and if one way had a shorter development time, you could bet that's the way 99% of all companies would go, particularly if it's a known answer to a specific problem.

And I'm still not seeing the grind here as being anything but voluntary.

[Fey]

It was the most cost-effective. IE, cheapest and took the least amount of development time. Which probably comes as a surprise to no one.

Even the dog is ashamed.

Uhhh I dunno about that. If there was no incentive to run the new dungeon it would end up the same as explorables. Lots of people running them at first, and then in a month or so, dead. It would have only been a temporary fix.

[Ruse]

I'm not going to go around in circles again.

I'm saying, game's not even 3 months old. It was supposed to be OK (from their perspective) for people to take breaks. People have been begging for name changes and character makeovers.

"It's just business" is kind of bullshit.

[Vayne]

I'm not going to go around in circles again.

I'm saying, game's not even 3 months old. It was supposed to be OK (from their perspective) for people to take breaks. People have been begging for name changes and character makeovers.

"It's just business" is kind of bullshit.

It's not that I'm saying it's just business. I'm saying that feedback they've subsequently received made them change course...which happens. They didn't have that feedback a year ago, when they planned what they'd say.

It's always easier to decide what a business should do when it's not your investment money that is being gambled. Everyone is always smarter than the developers.

Unfortunately, everyone doesn't share the same risk. Talk is cheap.

[Ruse]

It's not that I'm saying it's just business. I'm saying that feedback they've subsequently received made them change course...which happens. They didn't have that feedback a year ago, when they planned what they'd say.

It's always easier to decide what a business should do when it's not your investment money that is being gambled. Everyone is always smarter than the developers.

Unfortunately, everyone doesn't share the same risk. Talk is cheap.

Nope, I'm not an investor, or a developer -- I'm a consumer. And when a product I've been previously purchasing (in this case, supporting via cash shop) starts targeting another demographic than conflicts with mine, it's to be expected that I will take my business elsewhere. I don't owe Anet anything. They obviously are marketing to another demographic, and that's their right, But after courting me for years, it's not unreasonable for me to be pissed about that, or lack all desire to support them.

I'm not going to be the girl Anet keeps on the side for when the hot gear grinders have dumped him again.

And seriously, that's the last I'm going to say on the matter. Despite making every effort to appear completely reasonable and even-handed, you're basically telling me, Centaur, and people like us that it's unreasonable for us to feel the way we do. You still enjoy GW2. OK. Great. Keep playing. We don't like where it's going. OK. Great. We won't support it anymore.

Talk is cheap, you're right; that's why I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

[Vayne]

Nope, I'm not an investor, or a developer -- I'm a consumer. And when a product I've been previously purchasing (in this case, supporting via cash shop) starts targeting another demographic than conflicts with mine, it's to be expected that I will take my business elsewhere. I don't owe Anet anything. They obviously are marketing to another demographic, and that's their right, But after courting me for years, it's not unreasonable for me to be pissed about that, or lack all desire to support them.

I'm not going to be the girl Anet keeps on the side for when the hot gear grinders have dumped him again.

And seriously, that's the last I'm going to say on the matter. Despite making every effort to appear completely reasonable and even-handed, you're basically telling me, Centaur, and people like us that it's unreasonable for us to feel the way we do. You still enjoy GW2. OK. Great. Keep playing. We don't like where it's going. OK. Great. We won't support it anymore.

Talk is cheap, you're right; that's why I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

I've said, about a dozen times, I understand where you're coming from. Does that sound like dismissing you? In fact, when someone else said they don't understand why people are pissed off, I explained it, because I understand it.

Your issue is that it doesn't bother me, and that bothers you. And that I don't see this as gear GRIND. That's it. I never even said you wrong wrong, I only questioned Centaur's use of strong words to make a point that didn't need it.

And sure Anet may well have pissed off a percentage of their customers. I'd do the same thing if it meant keeping a much bigger percentage of other customers. It's a shitty decision for any company, whether you like them or not, but I don't know too many companies that would say, you know what, I'm going to stay with the smaller group, because I like them. It just doesn't work that way.

I'm being as reasonable as you. Even more reasonable, since I'm not judging, I'm taking a wait and see approach. How is that in any way unreasonable.

The problem for me is when people throw around words like lie. It's not what happened in my book.

[Ruse]

I've said, about a dozen times, I understand where you're coming from.

And yet you keep arguing with us, telling us how we're incorrect if we feel lied to. You can say whatever you want -- your actions say otherwise.

EDIT: And no, I'm not upset that you don't agree with me. Fey doesn't agree with me either (nor do many of my guildmates!), but we don't have this problem because he isn't full of hot air. He picks a side and sticks to it, and he doesn't take refuge in semantics.

[Vayne]

And yet you keep arguing with us, telling us how we're incorrect if we feel lied to. You can say whatever you want -- your actions say otherwise.

EDIT: And no, I'm not upset that you don't agree with me. Fey doesn't agree with me either (nor do many of my guildmates!), but we don't have this problem because he isn't full of hot air. He picks a side and sticks to it, and he doesn't take refuge in semantics.

You can feel lied too all you want, but that's not the same thing as saying Anet lied. Changing direction even wouldn't mean lying, if you set out to do something and it doesn't work.

I argue against hyperbole wherever and whenever I see it, because it diminishes the issue. I'm telling you that you have a legimate issue if Anet is in fact doing what you say they're doing, but I don't see them doing it. That's the issue.

You say they're introducing gear grind, I say they're not. That's not semenatics, but actually a different discussion altogether.

You say gear progression IS gear grind and I say it's not. That's not semantics either.

Any argument has to start with agreement on terms and if we can't agree on terms, there can't be an argument. I disagree we're seeing the beginning of gear grind here, at least anything but voluntary grind which was already in the game. If some people feel they have to must have the best stats, well, I certainly feel sympathy for them, but I still don't really feel it's much different from having to get from a green to an orange at end game. I'm playing to raise my stats. I'm either grinding karma or something else to get the best.

You see this as something different and I don't. But I still argue it's not grind, because I've seen no evidence of having to grind yet to do anything in the game. WvW, SPvP or PVe. There's nothing in this game at this time I have to grind for.

And I've done the fractals a bunch of times and I don't feel like I have to grind that to get better gear either. I'm quite happy with getting exotics and playing without that gear. I don't understand why someone would feel they need that gear.

Yes, I get the whole Anet said one thing and it changed. I get that it was a core value they laid out a long time ago. I even get why you're pissed about it.

That STILL doesn't make it gear grind, because forced gear grind is a point that I won't cross or do...so if it was there, I'd be leaving with you. I just don't see it.