What if WoW never existed?

[Fey]

I probably honestly don't miss grinding hell levels. A single hell level would be like 1-80 but standing somewhere with fast spawning mobs pulling the same chain over and over for days on end.

^ This.

[Don't Panic]

I probably do honestly maybe possibly think that too!

[Vayne]

So I watched this link you provided and you know, I like Taugrim. I have for a long time. But that doesn't mean he's infallible. First, I agree with his points that we should want more games, but I take it a step further than he did. I want not just more games in number, but more games with actual differences. When most games in a single genre are essentially the same game over and over, because businesses are trying to capitalize on a single successful title. it's not just WoW that's the problem but the hundreds of games that have attempted to copy it. It's great if you like that sort of thing, but if you don't, you're out in the cold. Too many games copy and that's why so many people are so upset about the new changes to Guild Wars 2. Because they see this as going in that direction and they HATE that direction. This reaction didn't happen in a bubble.

I also don't blame the players...I blame the companies. No matter what Taugrim says about it, companies aren't always ethical and some products succeed due to advertising, addictive (but not fun gameplay) and may other factors. I see a problem with slot machines and pokie machines. People don't play them because they're 'fun'. They play them because they're addictive. A lot of work goes into making them addictive and I blame the companies that produce them for that, more than the people who are addicted.

EQ was called Evercrack for a reason and WoW is also very addictive as a game. Guild Wars 2 is considerably less addictive, which is a good thing, not a bad thing. But people who need their fix don't really care to hear that.

I don't believe that the format WoW eventually pushed forward was good for the industry, but if it was just Blizzard doing it, it would have been okay. It's not. It's everyone who copied it.

And btw, companies that have more money to advertise are far more likely to succeed, not based on the quality of the game, but on the sucker headed driftwood that follows the herd to something cool. There are lots of really really stupid things that were massively cool and made a lot of money, that no longer exist in their current form. They don't get popular or successful because they're amazing, they get popular and successful because people buy into them. There are plenty of examples of this sort of thing, from disco to the Rocky Horror Picture show.

The point is, this entire piece is directed at people who mindlessly attack other fans, where as I'm not. I'm not sitting here even attacking WoW or Blizzard. I'm saying that the gear grind that they introduced to the genre was bad for the genre, no matter how many people bought into it.

[Fey]

The point is, this entire piece is directed at people who mindlessly attack other fans, where as I'm not. I'm not sitting here even attacking WoW or Blizzard. I'm saying that the gear grind that they introduced to the genre was bad for the genre, no matter how many people bought into it.

But they didn't introduce the gear grind. I've been grinding gear in games for much longer than WoW has been around. And not just in MMO's either. There's nothing wrong with gear grinds. If you don't like it don't do them. You always mention how Rift treadmills you into end game raiding, and it does. But I knew that before it came out and I chose not to play it because of that.

The week it came out all my raiding friends who tried it were like "Man this game is so cool! There are so many bosses for us to kill and the game just released!" and I told them "That's great! But I don't want to raid in that game." and that was that.

I honestly think that people who are against gear and numbers and grinds shouldn't be playing MMO's or even RPGs in general.

[Vayne]

But they didn't introduce the gear grind. I've been grinding gear in games for much longer than WoW has been around. And not just in MMO's either. There's nothing wrong with gear grinds. If you don't like it don't do them. You always mention how Rift treadmills you into end game raiding, and it does. But I knew that before it came out and I chose not to play it because of that.

The week it came out all my raiding friends who tried it were like "Man this game is so cool! There are so many bosses for us to kill and the game just released!" and I told them "That's great! But I don't want to raid in that game." and that was that.

I honestly think that people who are against gear and numbers and grinds shouldn't be playing MMO's or even RPGs in general.

Or, maybe people need an alternative game that doesn't have those things. Saying this is the way the genre is, so those people shouldn't play it, is simply saying I'm okay with the genre, so it's fine. That's not progressive.

I'm saying there is room for different kinds of MMOs with different angles on how to play them and until now, we've seen precious little of that...how can that POSSIBLY be good for the genre?

The problem now exists where for years, there has only been one game and town and people ARE conditioned to think that's how it has to be. They can't even think past the fact that it doesn't, BECAUSE every game is that way.

How is something new ever going to come about in the climate? Everyone who tries something new is going to fail, because people adapt slowly.

And that's sorta what I think this Anet change is about. Trying to slowly get people away from the gear treadmill, by giving them something but not too much while designing other things in the interim. Anet isn't going to stop putting out minigames. They're not going to stop building their open world content. They're not going to stop improving PvP, but they've thrown a bone to the people that need this kind of thing, not because they want gear grind in their game, but to give them a further chance to win people over. Some people WILL learn to appreciate other aspects of the game, if they stay around long enough.

Of course, most people won't, because most people are terrible learners.

[Fey]

Or, maybe people need an alternative game that doesn't have those things. Saying this is the way the genre is, so those people shouldn't play it, is simply saying I'm okay with the genre, so it's fine. That's not progressive.

Lastability has and always will be the issue.

I'm gonna make this REAL simple. MMORPGS, and RPGS, are easy games. Game designers figured out REALLY early on that MOST PEOPLE are going to be bad at video games. They're not going to have that drive to push their skills to the limit, they're going to want to be able to just sit down and do things and feel accomplishment.

So they introduced avatar strength. Instead of making games harder they made them pretend hard. Enemies took more hits because you didn't have the best weapons, you take more damage because you don't have the best armor. And as a result your character improves over time but you stay the same as a gamer and your skill isn't required to increase.

This is not an MMO thing. This has been around since the NES. You wanna know the first gear grind I ever had to do? It was in Castlevania II: Simon's Quest released 1987. Released before I was even born(obviously I played it later on) and before MMO's where ever a THING. Before playing games ONLINE with people was ever a thing.

WoW and MMO's did NOT create this "problem" as you put it. The players did because they were more willing to play a game when their characters improved because of their time invested, rather than becoming better players.


So NO. You're wrong. I'm VERY progressive. But you get what you buy, and this is what MMO's are at this current moment. Expecting them to be something else is foolish.

Edit: Blaming developers for creating products that are extremely successful is also very foolish. Especially when your facts aren't straight and you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Vayne]

Lastability has and always will be the issue.

I'm gonna make this REAL simple. MMORPGS, and RPGS, are easy games. Game designers figured out REALLY early on that MOST PEOPLE are going to be bad at video games. They're not going to have that drive to push their skills to the limit, they're going to want to be able to just sit down and do things and feel accomplishment.

So they introduced avatar strength. Instead of making games harder they made them pretend hard. Enemies took more hits because you didn't have the best weapons, you take more damage because you don't have the best armor. And as a result your character improves over time but you stay the same as a gamer and your skill isn't required to increase.

This is not an MMO thing. This has been around since the NES. You wanna know the first gear grind I ever had to do? It was in Castlevania II: Simon's Quest released 1987. Released before I was even born(obviously I played it later on) and before MMO's where ever a THING. Before playing games ONLINE with people was ever a thing.

WoW and MMO's did NOT create this "problem" as you put it. The players did because they were more willing to play a game when their characters improved because of their time invested, rather than becoming better players.


So NO. You're wrong. I'm VERY progressive. But you get what you buy, and this is what MMO's are at this current moment. Expecting them to be something else is foolish.

Edit: Blaming developers for creating products that are extremely successful is also very foolish. Especially when your facts aren't straight and you sound like you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm wrong because you don't agree. lol Okay.

You're wrong because you think it is this way so it has to be, and that's not actually the case. It doesn't and didn't happen to be this way. You still think this is a skill/not skill thing. I see it as a cost effective thing, because it's cheaper to make gear grind than a living breathing world. But Anet is trying to make that living breathing world. THey do, however, have to bridge the gap between what exists now and where the genre needs to go.

If you don't think this genre is stale as hell and shitty, that's okay. Plenty of people disagree with you.

[Fey]

I'm wrong because you don't agree. lol Okay.

You're wrong because you think it is this way so it has to be, and that's not actually the case. It doesn't and didn't happen to be this way. You still think this is a skill/not skill thing. I see it as a cost effective thing, because it's cheaper to make gear grind than a living breathing world. But Anet is trying to make that living breathing world. THey do, however, have to bridge the gap between what exists now and where the genre needs to go.

Ohh mmyy God.



U̶g̶h̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶u̶n̶n̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶i̶f̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶D̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶.̶

Okay now it's working. Nevermind.

[Vayne]

Ohh mmyy God.



U̶g̶h̶ ̶I̶ ̶d̶u̶n̶n̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶i̶f̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶k̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶D̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶e̶.̶

Okay now it's working. Nevermind.

LMAO!

This is why so many creative enterprises get screwed over. Hollywood, Madison Avenue, MMOs, it's all the same. You can't really compare MMOs to most other games, because to make a AAA MMO the budget is bigger, so the risk has to be smaller. That means things have to change in tiny increments, if they change at all.

Hollywood is the same way. We need Rambo 87, Nightmare on Elm Street 52 and a remake of every stupid show ever put on the air. Why use something that's already out instead of new and different? Because you can expect some profit from that...but it doesn't really work long term. That's what the MMO makers have found.

WoW was in the right place at the right time in the same way Harry Potter was. It made a killing by filling a niche. No one could copy it, not because WoW was such a great game, but because the time and place was gone. You couldn't fill that niche unless you were there in that time and space.

If WoW didn't fill that time and space, something else would have, and if they'd done things differently maybe the MMO space wouldn't have become so stagnant. It's WoW's very success that has screwed me over as a player.

I'm happy that you're one of the people who like that sort of thing. That's great for you. Doesn't do much for the rest of us though.

[Fey]

Uughh geez. Time to point out the obvious. Again.

If you don't think this genre is stale as hell and shitty, that's okay. Plenty of people disagree with you.

You're right, a lot of people are tired of it. But it has nothing to do with what I like or not. It has to do with what works. WoW's business model, works. No matter what you say or what points you try to prove, there are 10 million people playing that game and paying monthly fees and that is A LOT. You can lessen the number whatever conspiracy theories you want. Free accounts, trial accounts, whatever. Because at the end of the day, more people enjoy the gear grind than the people who complain and are tired of it.

And the point is:It's not only WoW that incorporates the gear grindy mechanics, and it didn't START with MMO's. It became a THING because game designers REALIZED that more people would buy into a franchise with said mechanics. Which is the point. "HEY People will play this! LETS MAKE IT!" if people would have bought a different business model, then that would have been made instead.

If you want more meaningful gameplay, play another game genre. Seriously. I could even recommend titles to you that you'd probably never even heard of or considered. So now while you guys sit here and bicker, I'm gonna go compete in real games because it's Friday.

Tata.