Food for thought

[chiria]

I am worried though that it will become you need x to go to y place with z gear and then if you dont have it your stuck. If I wanted this mentality I would have not stopped my sub to EQ2, there at lest I knew the grind. I may not see the whole point of the buy out of 15 percent but I do understand corp mentality and they think <money money money> and not of the customer nor of its people, that is my fear due to I worked with and watched 17 companies that started out grand ideals to wash out bankrupt after CEO's and investors swallow the profits and said got the bonus after said company bellied. Will this become play to win unsure will it become the game Anet said prior no need for grinded gear you bet it will and money will flow to those investors its why they invest heck if I invested hundreds of thousands you bet your toot sweet I want a return and fast or I will stop my said investments and never return and you bet that CEO will scream to its people you WILL do what tell you or you are fired even if said threat is to change its path. Now what we we do with all this fear posturing will we stay leave pay to win grind well its up to each its a game we payed for and some love some hate I will stay for a bit longer it seems my CC charged in eq2 (I forgot to stop the card sub) So now I can go back forth and now worries if this game fails or we lose a bunch of players I am set.

[Vayne]

I am worried though that it will become you need x to go to y place with z gear and then if you dont have it your stuck. If I wanted this mentality I would have not stopped my sub to EQ2, there at lest I knew the grind. I may not see the whole point of the buy out of 15 percent but I do understand corp mentality and they think <money money money> and not of the customer nor of its people, that is my fear due to I worked with and watched 17 companies that started out grand ideals to wash out bankrupt after CEO's and investors swallow the profits and said got the bonus after said company bellied. Will this become play to win unsure will it become the game Anet said prior no need for grinded gear you bet it will and money will flow to those investors its why they invest heck if I invested hundreds of thousands you bet your toot sweet I want a return and fast or I will stop my said investments and never return and you bet that CEO will scream to its people you WILL do what tell you or you are fired even if said threat is to change its path. Now what we we do with all this fear posturing will we stay leave pay to win grind well its up to each its a game we payed for and some love some hate I will stay for a bit longer it seems my CC charged in eq2 (I forgot to stop the card sub) So now I can go back forth and now worries if this game fails or we lose a bunch of players I am set.

But this really only comes to a head with games that charge subscriptions. Grinding gear doesn't necessarily make you money. Anet has said, quite clearly, that this was something that was missing at the onset. The game is a couple of months old and adjustments will have to be made. I saw this as a necessary adjustment before they made it.

The difference between most gear grind games and Guild Wars 2 is the gating of content. As long as content isn't gated by your gear, you'll be able to play anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Rthen]

But this really only comes to a head with games that charge subscriptions. Grinding gear doesn't necessarily make you money. Anet has said, quite clearly, that this was something that was missing at the onset. The game is a couple of months old and adjustments will have to be made. I saw this as a necessary adjustment before they made it.

The difference between most gear grind games and Guild Wars 2 is the gating of content. As long as content isn't gated by your gear, you'll be able to play anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Fractuals are gated by the latest level you have completed. Without the right gear you will die a lot and likely get groups even less. The higher level fractuals have the best reward vrs effort/risk.

Content gating exisits in GW2.

[Vayne]

Fractuals are gated by the latest level you have completed. Without the right gear you will die a lot and likely get groups even less. The higher level fractuals have the best reward vrs effort/risk.

Content gating exisits in GW2.

Fractals aren't gated, because you can enter them with any character at any time. You have to move through them to get the gear that you need to get further in them.

At any rate, having a dungeon where all the maps repeat endlessly, that I can always do at levels 1-5 isn't gated, by any definition I know.

When I say content is gated, it means you can not enter certain dungeons or raids without certain gear. In Rift, you can't even queue for a dungeon unless you have the right gear. it's not possible. So you can't see the content of that dungeon, unless you grind for the gear to see it. I understand Rift has made some changes, but far too late for me.

Basically if I can see all the content, then the content isn't gated. If I'm interested in going further and doing the same content at harder and harder difficulties, but the rewards from that dungeon allow me to get the stuff I need to go further, how is that a problem?

[Rthen]

Fractals aren't gated, because you can enter them with any character at any time. You have to move through them to get the gear that you need to get further in them.

At any rate, having a dungeon where all the maps repeat endlessly, that I can always do at levels 1-5 isn't gated, by any definition I know.

When I say content is gated, it means you can not enter certain dungeons or raids without certain gear. In Rift, you can't even queue for a dungeon unless you have the right gear. it's not possible. So you can't see the content of that dungeon, unless you grind for the gear to see it. I understand Rift has made some changes, but far too late for me.

Basically if I can see all the content, then the content isn't gated. If I'm interested in going further and doing the same content at harder and harder difficulties, but the rewards from that dungeon allow me to get the stuff I need to go further, how is that a problem?

Did I specificlly say it was a "problem"?

I am simply expressing an opinion that Content gating is clearly here in GW2 because in my opinion you are clearly gated from obtaining level 80 rewards worth the time unless you grind gear and are in a series of groups that can win the content and increase your fractual level "key". The content you experience also changes slightly as you grind up those fractual levels with more dungon sucesses.

Do I agree with this imlementation? Well, I think its a tad more accessible then Rift's vision and better then EQ2.. I don't tend to count LOTRO, STO, or SWTOR as being even worthy of comparison at this point.

The problem is simply lack of reward at 80 though. At least EQ2 provides the clear illusion of reward while GW2 makes fractuals super hard with little real reason to try them currently unless ascended gear is further developed. I do find dealing with a 5 man group much easier to deal with then a 24 person raid with even more elitiest guild leader/raid leaders.

If ascednded gear is further developed then I'm not sure how far I will get since it will eventually require a top end guild with mature players to get past level 15 or even 20. in real life I'm in the late 30s early 40s real life age range.. so I am very picky on who I play with, I can tolerate young adults usually but as I get older its tougher. I am having enough problems accepting the terms they use on the officals boards, "kittening?"???? I know the context but it somehow annoys me.

GW2 might even convince me its time to grow up and stop playing MMOs.. I'm just getting too old for this crap.

[Vayne]

Did I specificlly say it was a "problem"?

I am simply expressing an opinion that Content gating is clearly here in GW2 because in my opinion you are clearly gated from obtaining level 80 rewards worth the time unless you grind gear and are in a series of groups that can win the content and increase your fractual level "key". The content you experience also changes slightly as you grind up those fractual levels with more dungon sucesses.

Do I agree with this imlementation? Well, I think its a tad more accessible then Rift's vision and better then EQ2.. I don't tend to count LOTRO, STO, or SWTOR as being even worthy of comparison at this point.

The problem is simply lack of reward at 80 though. At least EQ2 provides the clear illusion of reward while GW2 makes fractuals super hard with little real reason to try them currently unless ascended gear is further developed. I do find dealing with a 5 man group much easier to deal with then a 24 person raid with even more elitiest guild leader/raid leaders.

If ascednded gear is further developed then I'm not sure how far I will get since it will eventually require a top end guild with mature players to get past level 15 or even 20. in real life I'm in the late 30s early 40s real life age range.. so I am very picky on who I play with, I can tolerate young adults usually but as I get older its tougher. I am having enough problems accepting the terms they use on the officals boards, "kittening?"???? I know the context but it somehow annoys me.

GW2 might even convince me its time to grow up and stop playing MMOs.. I'm just getting too old for this crap.

Or they'll be true to what they said when they said there'll be other ways to get this gear...which was said. I don't understand why everyone keeps ignoring this. At this time, they've put a ring in the dungeon and there's a way to craft a back slot piece. I think you need a mat from the dungeon.

But that's the only thing available. They also said they're be redoing dungeon rewards for other dungeons. Do we know they won't have the ability to access this gear there? They said the gear will be available in WvW. We don't know how yet.

I'm not even saying this is bad or good, I'm saying we don't know. We should know more very soon. Until we do know, it's too soon to freak out. That's all I've really said.

I've been in the MMO game for too long to react quickly to change that seems bad. And it keeps happening. The cash shop, the trait changes, every time something is announced, a percentage of the fan base explodes. It might not always be the same percentage, but no matter when an MMO changes something, some percentage of the fan base will become disenchanted. This isn't the first or last time I've seen this happen.

So instead of jumping on the bandwagon, which I learned not to do a long time ago, I'm reserving much judgment until I see what's on offer. I'm thinking it might not be what people are predicting.

[Avariz]

...

I've been in the MMO game for too long to react quickly to change that seems bad. And it keeps happening. The cash shop, the trait changes, every time something is announced, a percentage of the fan base explodes. It might not always be the same percentage, but no matter when an MMO changes something, some percentage of the fan base will become disenchanted. This isn't the first or last time I've seen this happen.

...

I don't know doing another analogy will get us anywhere, but, buying a car or doing a mortgage are medium/long term goal for many common people. They are a burden in planning, implementation, and execution. All people that do them get worried sick over them and they will get freak out now and again because of the strain.

In historical times acquiring a suite of armour and accompany weapons like great sword and so on are like today's medium/long term goal of indenture to buying a car or doing a mortgage. The work burden/load and importance is identical to playing GW2 when working long hours to acquire those armour pieces and accompany weapons. It takes planning, implementation, and execution.

Therefore any GW2 changes to the game should take account of players investment that players have already put into the game working toward those armour pieces and weapons.

[Vayne]

I don't know doing another analogy will get us anywhere, but, buying a car or doing a mortgage are medium/long term goal for many common people. They are a burden in planning, implementation, and execution. All people that do them get worried sick over them and they will get freak out now and again because of the strain.

In historical times acquiring a suite of armour and accompany weapons like great sword and so on are like today's medium/long term goal of indenture to buying a car or doing a mortgage. The work burden/load and importance is identical to playing GW2 when working long hours to acquire those armour pieces and accompany weapons. It takes planning, implementation, and execution.

Therefore any GW2 changes to the game should take account of players investment that players have already put into the game working toward those armour pieces and weapons.

There's two sides to this coin. There's people who already have all exotic top level gear who have nothing to strive for, except for legendary weapons. No better armor at all. And a lot of people, including me, feels there needs to be something more. Why have legendary weapons, but no legendary armor?

Perhaps that's what Anet should have done, but then they'd still have the problem have having no real medium term goals.

The reason you can't compare this to a real world mortgage, or buying a car, is because games exist in a vacuum. Nothing else affects them. In real life, if you don't have a car, you might not be able to get to work. That's a real problem.

This is more akin to having one type of car, and another car coming on the market. You already have a car that gets you to work, so do you NEED this better car? No. But if you want it enough, you can save up for it. If you don't, then you can still get to work.

You're assuming none of this was taken into account. I think it's obvious that it has been taken into account. There are short term goals in the game, there are long term goals, but medium goals were lacking.

This is more along the lines of we have economy cars and luxury cars, but we didn't have a middle level car between the two, so you either got a prius or a rolls, but there was nothing between.

Again, people are making this out to be a big deal...without any real evidence of anything. When we know more, then we can decide if we should be pissed off.

[Sericenthe]

If they make the ascended gear available in all dungeons and WvWvW what's the problem? Just make it cost more. Heck, they could add it to the Orr Karma vendors as well. The Karma vendors in Orr charge 42000 per exotic piece, the ascended version could be 126,000 per piece or something like that. they also could add Tier (4) cultural Armor to the game and have that cost more in gold. The key is variety of ways to get the stuff. Wow you had to do the same dungeon over and over again. Choices matter. Variety matters. If they do that then it's not really a gear grind.

[Bell]

This is more akin to having one type of car, and another car coming on the market. You already have a car that gets you to work, so do you NEED this better car? No. But if you want it enough, you can save up for it. If you don't, then you can still get to work.

The question is if it will really remain "wanting" and doesn't become "needing". If it's "wanting" and I will be able to fight on relatively equal footing in WvW, I couldn't be bothered less by the change. But the increase in stats on the items we already know indicates that it won't be a minor stat rise, but one that could really impact a fight.

Therefore, over time it will become "needing", especially when they introduce the next tier. I mean, I don't think that they won't eventually do that, because sooner or later the same part of the crowd that demanded vertical progression in the first place, will have everything that can be grinded out of FotM and demand new things to grind for.

Plus, if those on the official forums aren't exaggerating (which might be), the game is already getting more elitist and exclusive. People only wanting groups for certain lvls of fractals (full exotic is mandatory for many groups), which leads to 15 people spamming the mapchat for the same dungeon, but nobody getting together because they all want different lvls of fractals.

And not to forget the PR fiasco the paradigm-shift has caused. It will be hard for ArenaNet to succeed with all the founded and unfounded criticism spreading like wildfire all over the net. Let alone to regain their fanbase's trust. Because pretty much everybody who used to be a GW2 "fanboy" seems to be pretty pissed right now.