Guilds

[Vayne]

Comparing a writing group to a sports team is kind of silly. It would have been better to compare teams from different sports or the theme of one writing group to another.

For instance, every sport has it's own set of rules and each athlete has to perform specific training exercises depending on the sport. If you're playing Basketball you're not going to practice passing the ball with your feet like you would in Football. And in Football you wouldn't practice dribbling the ball with your hands. But in both sports, the players need an immense amount of endurance, awareness, and teamwork.

Just like how every MMO has a different set of mechanics, goals, objectives, playstyles etc etc, Guilds still focus on things that the game itself presents. Obviously each guild has the freedom to focus on whatever the Guild Master and members decide to focus on. SPvP, WvW, or in your case RP and just having fun.

But there really isn't anything there for PvE. In fact, there really aren't that many "PvE" centric guilds. I mean sure, people can get guildies together to run dungeons or farm Orr or explore or whatever they feel like. But that's not the same.

And I'm not saying I want Raids either. I'm not even going to suggest anything, since it's only met with "This is the same argument" "People just want GW2 to be WoW" "Blah blah blah". I want to see what ArenaNet gives us. I want to see their take on it. Because we definitely need something.

No, it's not silly. Because that's essentially what you're doing. You're taking something that for some of us a social thing and trying to turn it into a competitive or challenging thing. From the beginning this is what this conversation has been about.

I don't play this game to compete. You do. That's it. So you want stuff to do as a guild that's challenging and I don't. I don't see how I can explain this any more simply than that. Both groups of people, sports teams and social clubs are groups of people that get together, but they get together for different reasons.

Guild Wars 2 is NOT a sport. You want competitive, challenging content that requires an organized team. That's closer to a sport. I want a relaxed fun, social atmosphere where I can enjoy myself without the annoying bullshit that comes with a bunch of competitive types. Neither of these desires is better or worse, but they're different.

So while you think it's better to have those things, they don't do anything for me personally. If I wanted a competitive job, I'd go back to sales or writing. I'm past the point where I need or want that kind of competition. But since people have guilds for completely different reasons, it's not silly to compare two types of "teams" if you will. My guild is nothing like a sports team, and never will be. Many PvP guilds are very much like a sports team.

So why is it silly to compare them?

[Fey]

No, it's not silly. Because that's essentially what you're doing. You're taking something that for some of us a social thing and trying to turn it into a competitive or challenging thing. From the beginning this is what this conversation has been about.

It has nothing to do with being competitive. I've never been competitive about PvE.

[tym]

IMHO,Fey, Sound like you are wanting or wishing for something that has more of a Strategy based Option. Again, imho, people just wanna log on, kill stuff and have fun. There is one dungeon that does require a group effort, I am referring to the lovers. Thats all I am gonna say, No spoilers.

Everyone is so different, they approach the game in there own way. Some are loners, some want 100 percent map completion, some just wanna craft while others hate crafting.

It would be almost impossible to find people willing to take the time and effort to preform a task, getting everyone online at the same time, wanting to reach that same goal. Most people just wanna game, not have to put lots of thought into a group effort. We play to escape reality, not deal with the hassles of having to out smart someting.

I mean no disrespect, and just offering my 2 cents. I am NOT trying to insult or "flame" anyone.

[Cariad]

I would probably be careful with which words you use then, for example using the words "some people" instead of "most". Because millions of people enjoy doing crosswords or Sudoku in their leisure time, or playing chess, rather than watching TV.

[Vayne]

I would probably be careful with which words you use then, for example using the words "some people" instead of "most". Because millions of people enjoy doing crosswords or Sudoku in their leisure time, or playing chess, rather than watching TV.

And yet I'm pretty sure most people who play Guild Wars 2 really don't crave that heavy team experience, at least of those who play PvP. It's the same in all the games. The people who post and get noticed are generally the raiders and dungeon crawlers. They're the most vocal. The people who solo and don't join guilds and just bum around...they don't often join forums or speak up. Some because they're anti-social, some because they're selectively social (like me), some because they're shy, some because they're insecure, some because they're used to playing single player games.

There are a whole lot of people out there who solo or play MMOs like single player games. The problem is every time one posts to a forum, five or six people tell them to get lost and go play a single player game, which really isn't the answer. Single player games are different than MMOs even for single players. It's just like the forums. Only a small percentage of people who sign up for forums ever post and only a small percentage of readers even register. There are a lot more people reading this forum than posting in it (and that we know for a fact).

I can't prove it, of course, but I'd be very surprised if there weren't more people who wanted solo or duo content than there were people who wanted larger man content that required more coordination...at least for PVe. PvP is an entirely different matter, IMO.

[Fey]

IMHO,Fey, Sound like you are wanting or wishing for something that has more of a Strategy based Option. Again, imho, people just wanna log on, kill stuff and have fun. There is one dungeon that does require a group effort, I am referring to the lovers. Thats all I am gonna say, No spoilers.

The Dev's told us this was a "Skill Based MMO" and that dungeons were going to be ridiculously hard and require a lot of coordination. Yet they require next to 0 and you can pug all types of PvE content and not have to even worry about wiping. (at least on my server)

I do have fun logging on to just play. I'm not complaining about the game. I'm simply saying that it's missing things for Guilds to work towards.

People like Vayne that are uninterested in that kind of content can easily just ignore it if they put it in. I don't see why it would be a problem.

[Vayne]

The Dev's told us this was a "Skill Based MMO" and that dungeons were going to be ridiculously hard and require a lot of coordination. Yet they require next to 0 and you can pug all types of PvE content and not have to even worry about wiping. (at least on my server)

I do have fun logging on to just play. I'm not complaining about the game. I'm simply saying that it's missing things for Guilds to work towards.

People like Vayne that are uninterested in that kind of content can easily just ignore it if they put it in. I don't see why it would be a problem.

The problem is inherent in the type of game. It never seems like a problem to people like you...and you don't realize why I have a problem with it. That doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist. And I'm not saying these goals can't exist, but it has to be handled very carefully.

Let's say that Anet implements this highly competitive PVe dungeon that requires the teamwork you talk about. And let's also say that there are achievements tied up in and and content that people will want to see. Right now, everyone can see everything. We have a guy in our guild who's 60 years old with a vision problem and we can get him through most things even though he's not the best player in the world. And everyone rallys around and helps this guy, because he's a great guy. The harder the content, the more divided the playerbase. You'll have an area a small percentage of people will do, and the rest of the game may not be able to...which is fine for those who do it...but it also means programming resources that could be spent on stuff for everyone are now spent on the minority. And you know, maybe Anet is making enough money to make all the content. It's possible. But what doesn't get done because that content is being made.

I'll be honest with you... if that content exists I'll probably do it...once. Because I want the achievement. But I likely won't enjoy it. This happened in Guild Wars 1. I did everything that game had to offer. Urgoz's Warren and the Deep and DOA, they were hard areas that required teamwork. Most of the people who played the game never touched or finished those areas. I did. But I didn't enjoy those areas.

What they did was they broke the population of the game into shards and those who did those areas, they had their own language, they become more elitist, they stopped taking people in who didn't have specific skill sets. They didn't take me with my builds because I wasn't using the build of the month. I did it with my builds and my guild, because my guild ended up trusting me. I loved making builds and I made some very unorthodox builds that worked...but they didn't work with the builds everyone else was using.

So in order to do those areas, I had to tow the party line, change my build, change my game, play differently, not because I couldn't do it with my build, but because it was hard to get groups without doing what everyone said you had to. I hated that. I hated the way the community became in those areas. They developed a language unique to those areas. They took their builds off PVx wiki and you used the build of the month or you weren't in a group. Those who were there will know exactly what I'm saying.

It was all about speed clearing. It was all about farming. Did it ruin the game for me. Well, yes and no. It left a chunk of the game I had to get through to see by playing a way I didn't enjoy playing. Sure I wanted the achievements and I got them...but I had to change my play style to do it.

Can I ignore it? Sure. I can. But I can miss that content and know that it's left undone. I'd much rather have an inclusive game than an exclusive one. That's how my guild is and that's how the game I want to play is.

Now if Anet could make content that didn't lend itself to that kind of elitist, arrogant, us and them mentality, sure, I wouldn't mind it. It would be fine. But it's a fine line between challenging and so challenging that everyone only wants to do it one way. And that's a problem for me.

[Sericenthe]

The Dev's told us this was a "Skill Based MMO" and that dungeons were going to be ridiculously hard and require a lot of coordination. Yet they require next to 0 and you can pug all types of PvE content and not have to even worry about wiping. (at least on my server)

I do have fun logging on to just play. I'm not complaining about the game. I'm simply saying that it's missing things for Guilds to work towards.

People like Vayne that are uninterested in that kind of content can easily just ignore it if they put it in. I don't see why it would be a problem.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Balthazaar event is a pain. I have yet to see it done on my server when I was able to attend. You guys clearing that easy?

[Fey]

Let's say that Anet implements this highly competitive PVe dungeon that requires the teamwork you talk about. And let's also say that there are achievements tied up in and and content that people will want to see. Right now, everyone can see everything. We have a guy in our guild who's 60 years old with a vision problem and we can get him through most things even though he's not the best player in the world. And everyone rallys around and helps this guy, because he's a great guy. The harder the content, the more divided the playerbase. You'll have an area a small percentage of people will do, and the rest of the game may not be able to...which is fine for those who do it...but it also means programming resources that could be spent on stuff for everyone are now spent on the minority. And you know, maybe Anet is making enough money to make all the content. It's possible. But what doesn't get done because that content is being made.

You need to take "competitive" out of this, because world first and server first races aren't a THING in GW2. Nor am I saying I want them to be. As far as actual "competition" goes, that's all PVE has to offer.

I'm not saying it HAS to be a dungeon. I'm not saying it HAS to be anything. Guilds need some love, they need things to do that isn't "Lets figure out what to do because it's fun". That stuff is FINE but it shouldn't be the full extent of our options.

If more challenging content is added, be it dungeons, or specific events, or whatever ArenaNet decides to put in. You and your really old friend with a seeing problem can still do everything you already do. I'm sure that friend already ignores PvP since he's probably not very good at it, he'd be just fine ignoring more challenging content.

[Vayne]

You need to take "competitive" out of this, because world first and server first races aren't a THING in GW2. Nor am I saying I want them to be. As far as actual "competition" goes, that's all PVE has to offer.

I'm not saying it HAS to be a dungeon. I'm not saying it HAS to be anything. Guilds need some love, they need things to do that isn't "Lets figure out what to do because it's fun". That stuff is FINE but it shouldn't be the full extent of our options.

If more challenging content is added, be it dungeons, or specific events, or whatever ArenaNet decides to put in. You and your really old friend with a seeing problem can still do everything you already do. I'm sure that friend already ignores PvP since he's probably not very good at it, he'd be just fine ignoring more challenging content.

You miss my point. It's the attitude that comes with those types of challenges I object to. The creation of an us and them more than it already exists. The creation of people who feel you need to use a certain build. That's my issue. I understand it's not an issue for you, but I'm far from the only person who has issues with that sort of mentality and those sorts of challenges breed that sort of mentality.