GW2 and Writing: The Lack of Depth

[Fey]

So, I am literally sick and tired of basically being told that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to writing, lore, depth, story, etc. So I've decided to outline 3 basic examples of what I'm talking about when I say that "GW2's writing is weak".

Guild Wars 2: Guardians

So what do we know about Guardians from within the game itself? Well, we know that they're soldiers and tacticians, that they excel at selflessly protecting their allies from harm.

Where do they draw their powers from? According to the wiki and the official website, Guardians draw their powers from their virtues. And that's pretty much all we know about Guardians canonically.

Where do they get their virtues from? Are they granted by a higher power or are they given to them upon completing their training? Where do they train to become Guardians? When I create my character and start off as a level 1 Guardian, how did I get there?

Every race in the game can be a Guardian, now that's a design choice and a really good design choice. But while creating your character you're given the option to follow some form of deity or higher power. This would lead us to believe that Guardians are not religious since each race worships different deities. Which means they can't draw their powers from a higher power since Humans/Norns/Sylvari etc don't worship the same.

So where the hell are they getting their powers from? All we really know, is that it's considered as "magic". There is nothing written in game or out of game that explains how a Guardian comes to be a Guardian. So unless I missed it somewhere, it's literally not shown in game what so ever. This is what I'm talking about when I say that the game lacks a lot of actual depth.

D&D: Paladins

Paladins in Dungeons and Dragons(all versions) are much more in depth. Every race can be a Paladin, just like in Guild Wars 2, however every race also has the option to select a deity to follow and every race can choose from all of them.

The deity you choose when you create your character is what grants you all of your abilities and powers. But there are some very strict rules which you cannot cross. For example, deities come with alignments and you're required to stay within said alignment to maintain a spiritual connection with your deity. If you follow Aendar, who's Lawful/Good, and your character shifts to Chaotic/Evil, your abilities, your powers, everything that makes you a Paladin will be ripped from you and you'll be left as a normal character that can only use basic attacks.

Each deity also grants you specific types of powers and abilities as all of them have varrying alignments and elements. If you worship an earth deity for example you'll have access to specific abilities that someone worshiping a fire deity wouldn't.

In addition, each deity has their own lore and backstories (which can also be altered and added on by the GM for even more depth). It feels more complete, it feels like you have more of a purpose and a place in the world to have this kind of depth to come back to.

But hey, that's a table top game, not a video game. Fey you're an idiot, it's completely different. So lets look at another game series


Warcraft: Paladins (and no, not just WoW. All of Warcraft)

So Paladins in Warcraft are a little different than D&D. Everything about Paladins is explained inside the games (the RTS and the MMO) as well as a metric-crap-ton of additional info outside the games. And when I say everything, I mean everything.

Where they come from. Why they exist. How they train to become Paladins. How they are granted their powers. etc etc.

Where do Paladins come from? The Knights of the Silver Hand was the original paladin order. Formed during the Second War, it was at its height until the time of the Plague. As paladins were immune to the Plague (and indeed all diseases), many members of the Order survived the initial push of the Scourge.

Like D&D, Paladins in Warcraft are the virtuous defenders of the weak and tireless. Though unlike D&D their main enemies are the Undead and the Burning Legion. Also similarly to D&D, a paladin must be good and will lose all Light-given abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. So basically the same minus the customization.

Now Paladins literally gain their powers from The Holy Light. The followers of the Holy Light do not worship any gods. Instead, it is a philosophy, training its followers to seek perfection within themselves. It is very much an active practice of virtue rather than a passive worship. Those who follow it closely gain spiritual awareness and guidance, allowing them to lead others. This directly translates to all of their abilities and powers through every Warcraft game.

So bam. There you go. There's obviously a lot more story and lore than that, but you get the idea. This is what they are, this is why they exist, this is where they get their powers from, etc. All of it and more explained.


Why is this important?

Because honestly it bugs the crap out of me that a game that I love is so god damn shallow. I create a Guardian, I'm lvl 1, and I can do stuff. Cool. Zero immersion for my class, no idea where I came from. I'm just here. I could always come up with an RP reason for why I'm here, but I'd just be making up 90% of it out of my ass. And any other Guardian out there could come up with their own reasons and we could easily be conflicted which is confusing.

Compared to. I created a Paladin in D&D or Warcraft, and everything is explained. Where my class comes from, what their history is, their purpose, their code. etc. And because all of this is available to me, I am then able to build myself into said story and RP accurately without risk of God-moding or creating random crap out of thin air. And other people RPing can easily understand and find reference to what my character is doing.

I follow the Holy Light, I can heal with it. I follow Aendar, I'm going to obviously be RPing as a Lawful Good character, I'm a Paladin so I can do these abilities while RPing.

Depth is important to the RPG experience of being in a god damn RPG. It is not okay to just go "oh you're here and you can use these abilities because you can" that is weak writing.

And it's not just classes either. Everything I just posted that most of you probably didn't read can be applied to almost all of GW2.

/end rant

[Vayne]

This is all very interesting and has ZERO to do with story. Nothing. Nada. None. And if you think it does, you don't know what story is all about. End of story.

Lore is not story. Story is not lore. Knowing the background of a certain profession is lore, not story. In much of writing we're given what we need to know. An author might have reams of paper detailing everything they know about the world, but it's also frowned down upon to reveal it all. It's called exposition and too much exposition is a bad word to a lot of editors. They want show, not tell.

How did any profession or calling come into being. You can tell a story about a blacksmith without describing the history of blacksmithing. You need to know what a blacksmith does, not the entire background of how it evolved, unless it pertains to story.

The story in an MMO serves a very specific purpose. The purpose is to give your character motivation. If you play a guardian, there's a relatively good chance that YOU want to protect, as there's a relatively good chance that a doctor in the real world goes into medicine because he wants to cure people. It's basic. You don't need a whole history of the medical profession to understand a story about a doctor. A few words can paint a picture of anything if a writer is skilled.

So again, the writing of a game is there to orient the player, not to go into great depth about everything. You want a deep lore and that's fine. Not having it doesn't make the writing bad. How things evolve or didn't evolve doesn't make the writing bad either. And some stuff will be up to the fans to speculate about.

I'm not saying the game is deep. I'm saying the quality of the writing in the game has little to nothing to do with its depth.

[Fey]

Lore is not story. Story is not lore. Knowing the background of a certain profession is lore, not story. In much of writing we're given what we need to know. An author might have reams of paper detailing everything they know about the world, but it's also frowned down upon to reveal it all.

Duh? This thread isn't about the games story.

If I wanted to compare stories I would have compared Logan to Arthas. Not that it would be much of a comparison since Logan is completely one dimensional. Which is pretty much all of the characters in the game minus Caithe.

[Vayne]

You've said the writing is bad. What you mean is the writing isn't deep. One thing is judging the quality of the writing. One thing is questioning the depth of the writing. Two completely different things. Having less detail doesn't necessarily make writing worse, which has been my point all along.

You continually call me a fan boi because I disagree with you on the quality of the writing. The writing is uneven, but it doesn't suck. It's not bad writing. It's writing that serves the purpose for which it was created.

If you'd have come out and said that I prefer more depth to my lore, that the lore doesn't have the depth I like, I wouldn't have said anything at all. Unfortunately you chose a different tack and it's simply not true. The writing doesn't suck and it isn't bad. Some of it is pedestrian, that I'd agree with. Some of it is cliche. Some of it is trite. And some of it is funny, or entertaining. It's uneven, as it is in most games.

It's the kind of writing I've come to expect from most games and it's better writing than exists in most MMOs. It's not high literature, and it's not meant to be.

That's what I've been saying all along.

[Vayne]

To clarify, you called the writing "weak" and then also said:

And GW2 doesn't have that much depth or quality writing.

Well, it may not have much depth, but that has nothing to do with quality writing. That's my point. The writing quality itself, as I've said before, is uneven but some of it is very good. You're judging the entire game's writing by your personal desire for depth. But that's not how writing is or should be judged.

By all means, say you want more depth and this doesn't have it. But don't say that makes the writing weak, and don't say that there's no quality writing, because you'd be wrong at least some of the time.

[Fey]

You continually call me a fan boi because I disagree with you on the quality of the writing. The writing is uneven, but it doesn't suck. It's not bad writing. It's writing that serves the purpose for which it was created.

If you'd have come out and said that I prefer more depth to my lore, that the lore doesn't have the depth I like, I wouldn't have said anything at all. Unfortunately you chose a different tack and it's simply not true. The writing doesn't suck and it isn't bad. Some of it is pedestrian, that I'd agree with. Some of it is cliche. Some of it is trite. And some of it is funny, or entertaining. It's uneven, as it is in most games.

It's the kind of writing I've come to expect from most games and it's better writing than exists in most MMOs. It's not high literature, and it's not meant to be.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Well then. Since you're oblivious that some MMO's actually do have above average writing. Allow me to retort.

Vanilla WoW quest chain: Nathanos Blightcaller (Previously available at level 57, now removed)

Introduction: Champion of the Banshee Queen

Sylvanas Windrunner: "It pleases me greatly to see the battle hardened join our cause. Our numbers grow in size and strength as each day passes. Perhaps you are prepared to test your mettle, <class>? Among the first of my champions was Nathanos, now known as the Blightcaller. Few exist with more dedication or vigor amidst our ranks. Seek him out in the Eastern Plaguelands. He resides at the Marris Stead; occasionally roaming the decimated wastes, slaying all Scourge and Alliance filth that cross his path."

(after traveling to the Eastern Plaguelands)

Blightcaller: "Surely the Dark Lady does not believe you worthy to meet her champion. You are here to feed my hounds, yes? There could be no other reason for this interruption."

Part 1: To Kill with Purpose

Description: "You kill with purpose while you remain on my stead.

Your first task is to feed my hounds.

Take this Mortar and Pestle and travel to Corin's Crossing. Once there, you will find a robust selection of Scourge to slaughter. From their fresh carcasses I need Living Rot. Take that Living Rot and grind it up in the mortar, then let it sit to coagulate. Bring the Coagulated Rot back here.

And imbecile, realize that Living Rot from the undead doesn't remain 'living' for very long. You must kill quickly!"

Progress: "Are you crying? If this is too 'tedious' for you, 'hero,' I recommend that you head back to the Dark Lady and inform her of the horrible mistreatment you received at my farmstead.

Now get out of my sight!"

Completion: "Disappointing. I was hoping that I'd be feeding you to my hounds, instead.

<Nathanos sighs.>

Well, at least they'll have something to eat."

Part 2: Un-Life's Little Annoyances

Description: "You cannot take two steps off of this farm without running into one of those obnoxious bats. I want to be able to take the hounds out and slaughter Scourge without being accosted by any damned, dirty bats. Obviously, I have better things to do with my time than mindlessly kill bats day in and day out. You, however, do not.

What? Your training? This is your training! Now get out of my sight and don't come back until you've killed a fair number of those winged demons. Don't disappoint me."

Progress: "It could have been worse. I could have been having you collect bat guano.

Hrm... Hey! Wait a minute. Where are you going?"

Completion: "It's incredible what a little anger and rage can get accomplished."

Part 3: The Ranger Lords Behest

Description: "The high elves of the Quel'Lithien lodge possesses something that belongs to me, <class>: A document detailing my life as a mortal.

Before you ask; no, you most certainly are not privy to such information. Just do as I tell you, worm: Recover the registry.

And imbecile, be sure to leave as much strife and grief as possible in your wake. Leave them suffering..."

Progress: "Do not leave me waiting, <class>."

Completion: "I trust you did not read the registry. Not even you would do something that idiotic..."

Part 4: Duskwing, Oh How I Hate Thee

Description: "Up until now, you have completed the missions I have assigned; even if not in the most timely manner. I suppose you think that you are ready for a challenge. Yes... Yes, imbecile, perhaps you are ready for a more involved set of missions. The albino demon bat, Duskwing, roams the countryside just north of here. Track him down and destroy him. Return to me with a patch of his white fur and you shall be rewarded."

Progress: "I would not recommend that you take on this challenge alone, <class>."

Completion: "Excellent work, imbecile. I shall fashion this fur into something you can use."

Part 5: The Corpulent One

Description: "Past the Argent Dawn encampment of Light's Hope and west of Northdale, you will find the corpulent maggot beast, Borelgore.

I've lost entire regiments to that monster. His size knows no bounds! The more he eats the greater his girth becomes...

While I would not suffer any emotional harm should the beast devour you, I would prefer that you were the victor. I recommend you enlist the help of others for this mission. Borelgore has been known to devour small battalions foolish enough to attack him."

Completion: "Keep this up and I may have to promote you from imbecile to mental deficient, first class."

Part 6: Ramstein

Description: "I was overwhelmed. On this very stead, I stood... held my ground in defense of Lordaeron. The farm and all on it were waylaid by a gigantic wave of Scourge.

The wretch. The filth. It hovered above me, entrails hanging from its gaping chest cavity.

I woke as Scourge. For so long I was helpless. My mind had coalesced with the Lich King's.

She came for me... somewhere, somehow, I knew she would. Free.

And now, I must have my vengeance - my vengeance on that which took from me my life. Destroy it."

Progress: "After Sylvanas freed me, I hunted the beast across these wastes for months. It fled to the safety of Stratholme. The bastard..."

Completion: "I wonder... did it beg for mercy? Could it know what mercy is?

<Nathanos spits.>

I will hang this beast's head upon my wall.

You have earned a spot amongst one of my champions, <name>.

<Nathanos salutes.>"

Part 7: The Call to Command

Description: "The order has come down, <class>. Sylvanas herself has requested that I send my most 'capable' agents back to the Undercity for a highly sensitive tactical operation.

Unfortunately, my most capable agents were killed over three years ago. In their stead I have a collection of brain dead riff-raff.

<Nathanos stares coldly at you.>

Travel to the Undercity at once and report to the Dark Lady. Do not embarrass me, <class>!"

Completion: "The Grand Crusader sits safely in the Scarlet Bastion while his forces pour into our lands, desecrate our structures and monuments and murder our people.

The time has come to deal with this pest. You will become the instrument of our reckoning."


The chain continues on for several more steps. But you get the idea.

OHH LOOK AT THAT! A WELL WRITTEN STORY QUEST THAT GIVES YOU A SENSE OF PURPOSE, CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND ACCOMPLISHMENT IN AN MMO! WHO KNEW?!

Instead of, you know, GW2 handing you everything for free during the personal story and everyone turning to you for all of the answers for no god damn reason. Hey let me just waltz into the Vigil headquarters and order people around and help them make decisions when I just joined. Herp derp derp DERP. But that's okay! It's just an MMO. It doesn't matter if it's below par.

[Vayne]

LMFAO! And this is the great writing you speak of? This? Really?

There's plenty of writing in Guild Wars 2 that is as good as this. There's a great side conversation between an Ausuran and his golem, and a sylvari in The Grove. The sylvari is driving the golem crazy by asking it questions. It's quite hysterical. I don't have a transcript, because the game is too new to have every single line of dialogue in the wiki, but that particularly conversation had me laughing.

There are tons of lines of dialogue written in this game that are entertaining. Playing the Sylvari storyline, I had several moments I really enjoyed. There's Rytlocks intro to the Ascalonian Catacombs, which is well written. There's a lot of stuff in this game that's well written...what's it's not is quest chains.

You seem to be unable to tell the difference between the quality of something that's written without divorcing it from the purpose for which it is written. There are no quest chains in Guild Wars 2 that have walls of text. And when you voice something, you can't really have a character stand there for five minutes during say a dynamic event. It's not plausible. The direction of the writing is completely different, but that doesn't mean one set of writing is better than another. That's not how writing is judged.

Now, if Guild Wars 2 had walls of text, that you could sit and read at your leisure, that most people would skip, this comparison would make FAR more sense, but imagine requiring someone during a dynamic event to listen to that entire thing. People would be pulling their hair out. Not me, maybe, and not you, but most people.

So, if you want to compare walls of text quests with dynamic events, you're comparing apples and oranges. You'd have to compare written quest text to written quest text.

Now, Guild Wars 2 doesn't have great long wonderful quest chains, that's true. It's one of the reasons I was looking forward to TSW if you recall. Because it contains a type of content that doesn't exist in this game. Doesn't change the writing or make it weaker. It means the game is designed differently.

I suspect that Anet will be introducing longer and more involved chains in the future, possibly tied in with getting some of the new legendary weapons. As of now, however, what you have is a standard quest chain from a game, compared to a game that doesn't have them.

Proving exactly what?

[Alexanian]

Well put Fey!

GW could use that sort of depth. I admit I expected more from a game that had 6 years worth of content in the 1st game. All great points,

Where did I come from?
Why have I chosen my Class path?
Why havent a had to struggle my way to the top.
and WTF is with Trahearn doing hijacking "My Story"?


lol


good examples to describe your points.

- - - Updated - - -

I hope anets new long quest chains dont involve rezzing another 100 refugees.

And what you describe Vayne is idle chit-chat amongst npcs that help flesh out the living world, but does nothing for character development. What is supposed to be "My Story" is actually "everyone else in all of tyria's, BUT my story"

[Fey]

LMFAO! And this is the great writing you speak of? This? Really?

Didn't say "great". Said, "well written" instead of, you know. Destiny's Edge had a highschool ***** fit and decided not to save the world. And only you, this random fucking unimportant person, can convince them to kiss and make up and bring them back together. By doing dungeons.

What a bunch of heroes we are! More like babysitters.

[Vayne]

Well put Fey!

GW could use that sort of depth. I admit I expected more from a game that had 6 years worth of content in the 1st game. All great points,

Where did I come from?
Why have I chosen my Class path?
Why havent a had to struggle my way to the top.
and WTF is with Trahearn doing hijacking "My Story"?


lol


good examples to describe your points.

TSW had, arguably, better writing than you had in the example posted above. TSW, however, had a major flaw. It was voiced and sitting there watching those scenes became almost intolerable, because they interupted the action of the game. Every quest you had a monologue from the quest giver that was amazingly well written. And the quests themselves are actually deeper than the dynamic events in Guild Wars 2, and the personal story as well.

The problem is that no matter how well-written those monologues were, and they were well written, they still failed as part of a game. That's the problem with judging voiced vs. text.

In a text game you can write pretty much anything. Most people will skip it. In a voiced game, it takes on an entirely different dynamic, and you seem to be ignoring this point.